The future of Duchies...

[Kaiser Mors VI]

So I've been talking in the IAC since before my reign on what to do with the duchies and nobility

Current two plans.

A. Abolish all Subdivisions. Those who have a county will retain them. Then hand out new titles with varying degrees of complexity. (See Goldenbrook's system for an idea of what I have in mind.). The Landsraad would have to decide what levels of nobility would get what votes. The preoccupation we have with static subdivision would stop. Instead the focus would be on the individual nobles and those that are working for them. Essentially, a Noble would be the head of a House that would have a title and lands. Some Nobles will remain in the traditional sense of Dukes, with a Title, Votes and Land. Some may only have lands, some may only have titles, some may have titles and votes. etc... All unclaimed lands would revert to the Kaiser. This system would be more fluid and reward based. If someone achieves power, wealth, influence and general accomplishment, they can be granted land, title, vote...basically becoming their own House, capable of acquiring people to join the house..etc. The details would be worked out, and this is just the general gist

B. Merge all Duchies with less then 5 people. Dismissing all Nobles and reassigning them based on activity and willingness to do the job. And possibly renaming all the duchies that remain/result. I would also like to revert unclaimed lands to the Kaiser in this plan as well, to be used for future projects.

My reasons for all these changes are simple. We are stagnant. We have been for a while. Instead of letting things take their likely course I feel we should try to remodel. We have MANY counties just being tied up by inactive people or in some situations one person holding several counties and cementing them as untouchable units. This is why I abolished Dolor recently, I was guilty of doing that, realized it and realized it was in the nations best interest to release those lands I wasn't personally using. Leaving me with just Monty Crisco. We need to stop letting counties be held hostage. They must be reclaimed.

Further, some Duchies just don't make any sense being duchies anymore. Goldenbrook is such an example. It has 2-3 people left. It cannot stands as a Duchy. If we simply go with Plan B I expect it to be one of the duchies that is completely removed. I forsee the outcome of Plan B to be Elwynn, Kildare and a third duchy with some of the remains of Goldenbrook, Yardistan and Stralight. It will be up various people to decide what happens. I would likely join with Kildare myself.

I personally favor Plan A, the 'House' system. With various levels of nobility, a more complex system and more room for newbies to grow. No more waiting for a Duke to retire. Now houses would rise to and fall from power and influence. However, I have been unable to get his plan moving in the IAC. I don't want to just rename the titles and retain the static, archaic system of subdivision we have now.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I still maintain that Duchies are one of the things about Shireroth that works really well. People really enjoy having their own Counties, and knowing that their land will be kept intact is one of the things that encourages countries to get annexed by us. And there's a reason the Duchy boards have 25,000 posts. People do lots of fun stuff in them.

Duchies come and Duchies go. It wasn't too long ago that Rakesh was declaring Brookshire to be the Grand Duchy of Brookshire because it was so much stronger than any of the others. Back during the days of Nick, Yardistan was an unstoppable force. Now the pendulum has swung, but it could swing back again.

I think it might be a good idea to merge Yardistan and Goldenbrook into the Duchy of Benacia or something like that. Straylight has six people - me, Ari, Harvey, Icebreaker, Shyriath, and Kathbad - even though not all of them are what you'd call model citizens.

Other than that, I think "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind. We have the same Duchy system now at 30 ppd as we did in January at 150 ppd and as we did in the reign of Kaiser Hasan at 300 ppd. If we're inactive, it isn't the Duchy system doing it. And remember what happened last time someone took our Duchies away from us.....

[Allot]

And there's a reason the Duchy boards have 25,000 posts. People do lots of fun stuff in them.

That's why I asked you how it would be divided. I still think there's a way to rework the Nobility System so that Dukes are more active while still maintaining the Duchies... I'm just not sure what it is. Because the Kaiser is right - there is a stagnancy. But Scott is also right - it's not the Duchies, although going through with the plan might spark some activity (I'm sure someone with argue the traditionalist side).

[Icebreaker]

I think it might be a good idea to merge Yardistan and Goldenbrook into the Duchy of Benacia or something like that. Straylight has six people - me, Ari, Harvey, Icebreaker, Shyriath, and Kathbad - even though not all of them are what you'd call model citizens.

ALL OF US ARE AMAZING ATUALLY, EAT A DICK

[CJ Miller]

Maybe replace the Duchies with Viceroyalties.

Something like:

Viceroy
Duke
Marquis
Earl
Baron

in that order.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

(I'm sure someone with argue the traditionalist side)

It will not be me today.

Scott, I think you made my point. Duchies come and Duchies go. I just suggest we facilitate that. I'm not saying places like Hurmu would be touched. And to be honest, we haven't annexed anyone in years. Hurmu is a Territory, not what I would call an annexation. And Kanto.. came left and annoyed in 24 hours. And I'm only talking about the core lands. The ones that haven't changed in years.

But people would still have their county, people can still gain counties. That what I want to encourage. I just don't want it to be automatic. If a place dies, it should be disbanded, not allowed to limp on.

We have all these empty counties that just get clumped together in baronies and then cemented so none can separate or even change them.

We'll still have dukes who hold lands. We'll have barons who hold lands. and even counts that just hold lands. but I'm saying we allow for MORE mobility. Be more willing to reclaim inactive counties. Let People rise and fall from power.

and yes, Duchies did once work VERY well. But now there are to many, to large, and to static.

Think about this...

Nick Newbee joins Shireroth. He has no lands, no titles, no money. He joins a Great House as a commoner. The Noble of that house helps the newbee, maybe gives him some money to start up. Newbee distinguishes themself, he works for the glory of his house, and his person. Working to improve the House and the Nation. The Kaiser is made aware of this. So... Newbee is granted some land, previously controlled by the Kaiser. Now that Great House has some more land under its control. Newbee is now both a member of a Great House and the head of his own House Minor. Maybe he starts picking up people, influence. Eventually... he is granted the title of a Full Noble. Now HE controls a House Major. He is equal to the old Noble he was under, and did not need to wait for that noble to retire or leave.

Right now.. Newbee is simply GIVEN a county. No earning. No commitment, nor sense of accomplishment. He's given titles by his Noble, just given. Not earned. It's expected. And all the while, the noble above him may be inactive, and not doing jack. But he won't give up his Duchy. So Newbee is stuck. He could try to convince the Kaiser to supplant the old Duke. Maybe he'll get lucky.

In a new House systems people/Houses can rise and fall, naturally, based on their influence, activity and accomplishments. Right now, duchies just ARE. They don't change. They are stagnant.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

And I don't want a simple rename of the current system. I want to see something new.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I think it's reinventing the wheel, but the good thing about Shireroth is that we're strong enough to outlast any stupid change, so we can try whatever we want and change back if it doesn't work. As long as you don't outright dissolve Duchies or Counties, I won't oppose you and I'll be interested to see what you can do.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Counties will remain as they are now. Duchies will not survive in their present form. There will be Duke's in their traditional rank and voting privilege. and they will have lands.

Barons would become nobles with lands and title, a say in the Landsraad, but no Vote. They would be considered House Minor, but independent of any other house.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Now I'm a little confused.

In the current system, I'm Duke of Straylight. If my friends come to Shireroth, they'll probably join Straylight, and there's a link and camaraderie among all Straylighters. If Straylighters are successful, I reward them with positions like Baron or emissary or Ducal Steward or whatever.

Under your system, I would be a Duke and maybe head of House Kalirion. If my friends came to Shireroth, I would recruit them to House Kalirion, and there would be a link and camaraderie among all family members. If members of House Kalirion were successful, they'd get rewarded with lands and titles.

How is there any difference between the two systems, except that houses don't get forums and have more trouble building culture?

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Houses would get forums. And those successful people would have the possibility of branching off into their own houses, being able to recruit and grow, without requirement you to abdicate or leave.

If you did leave, your house would pass to an heir, or if no heir could be found, dissolved. houses major would have the right to have heirs, while houses minor would not. They would simply dissolve when the head of the house left.

Houses Major would be the equivalent(ish) to Dukes now (along with some other titles with similar but different layouts). Barons now would be Houses Minor, subordinate to Houses Major, but with titles granted by the Kaiser. (The Landsraad may become part of the title and lands distribution, depending on what people want.)

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Oh... nevermind. I'll just go with Plan B.

[Shyriath]

Pity... speaking purely on aesthetic grounds, I kinda like the sound of Plan A. There's an organic sort of quality to it. And it sort of parallels the way the Imperial Bloodlines are supposed to work.

On the more practical side: I see what Scott's saying about how the end results of Plan A and The-Current-State-of-Things might not look too dissimilar, but I think I would argue here that the differences in underlying focus are important. Shireroth as it stands is very much tied to its land; we've gotten used to the idea that Shireroth is made up of Duchies, which have an existence that's quasi-independent from who's actually in them or running them; they have long-standing presences on the map, they have an associated Ducal title that carries Landsraad privileges. If the Duke is active and there are citizens that are participating, all well and good; but if they aren't, what then? Oh, it's not that it's impossible to get rid of an inactive Duchy, but traditionally it doesn't seem to happen very often; they have a kind of inertia. It makes a big hole in the map that calls out for fulfillment, because land stuck outside a Duchy is more or less useless; the Duchy itself may have a long history that makes disbandment too painful for a lot of people; you have the issue of the remaining citizens... But until the Duchy goes away, it still has a Landsraad vote, and a Ducal throne that needs filling.

Switching the focus of subdivisions to people, rather than land, may help shake off that mindset, especially if it was made explicitly clear from the beginning that a House's continued wellbeing would be entirely dependent on the efforts of its members. And the way land got handled could be a bit more flexible, since a House wouldn't be defined by its territory; if Houses got territory more or less proportional to their population/actvity/whatever, having land owned by no one but the Kaiser, for example, wouldn't be so much of a bad thing in that it would allow elbow room for a growing House, or a freer choice of land for a new House Major. You could even see a situation in which a bunch of people, whether newbies or current citizens, had an idea for a House that they wanted to take in a completely different direction from any existing House Major; if they were promising enough, the Kaiser could allow them to become a House Minor directly under Imperial jurisdiction (if they were willing to go without Landsraad representation in the meantime), and after a certain successful period promote them to a House Major with land straight out of the unclaimed areas.

Things might not function so differently other than that, but the basis will have changed, and I think it'd be worth a try.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

After talking to Erik - I still have my doubts, but I am willing to try Plan A for a reign or two if other people are.

[Ryan]

I am certainly willing to try the House system out and see if it works. If it doesn't, then we can revert back to the old system.

But as Scott says, I see a strong parallel between Ducal vs House. While I like the idea of a House system, I think it can do with a great deal of refinement. Though perhaps the best way to get the ball rolling on such would be simply to jump into it and see what happens. Like I said, we can always revert back if it turns out to not work well.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

I was feeling disheartened earlier, thus was just going to go with a Plan B.

But I guess I'll just go with Plan A.. it seems there's at least tentative support for it, and understanding.

I have removed Goldenbrook, which either way needed to happen. I think the next step is to go Duchy by Duchy and start reclaiming lands and seeing which lands will remain in what hands.

I think Yardistan will be next. But I'll put forth a outline for what will result with that decree. Then I'll go to Straylight, Elwynn, and finish with Kildare.

Then we can see who wants to join up with whom into the first set of houses. I think 3 Houses Major might be a good start.

Then we'll need to write up revisions to the Landsraad voting set up. Clear up types of nobles etc...

I think we should retain the traditional title of Duke as a Full-Noble that is the head of a House Major, has a vote in the Landsraad, lands and is inherited.

Although, we could always get the order of nobles "correct" finally...

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Yardistan plan of Action.

To become Imperial Lands
-Yardistan
-Naudia'Diva
-Musica (Doesn't Goldenbrook have that? meh)
-Agningas

To remain with Ryan
-Florin Sara
-Mar Sara

To remain with Greg
-Mirioth, Amity, and So Sara (is this 1 or 3 counties?)

To remain with Jake (if he wants them, otherwise to go to the Imperial Govenment)
-Western Absentia? (I'm a little confused how this is organized)

Did I miss any counties? Is there any negotiations to be done?

[Kaiser Mors VI]

I'm a little confused with what to do with Straylight and it's unclaimed Sancts. Sancts don't have any real land...So yeah.

But here goes.

To revert to Imperial Control
-McCallavre
-Pohjankaupunki
-Sargassum
-Much Rejoicing
-Backbone Site
-Deep Trouble
-Sanctuary Dome
-Wave Manifold
-Clonmacnoise
-Blavatsky
-Incremental Search
-Gensym
-Lightwave

To ICEBREAKER:
Discontinuinty

To Shyriath:
Sunderspray


Ari, Scott and Harvey don't seem to have any lands in Straylight. I would have no problems granting a Sanct to keep after this happens. As before, let me know if I missed anything, or if negotiations are needed.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Elwynn

To revert to the Imperial Government
-Eliria and Utasia
-Smjörkýr
-Cimmeria and Avaldnes
-Illumination

To the Khan:
-Alalehzamin

To Allot:
-Araxion

To Scott:
-Hyperborea

To Leo:
-Wintergleam and Wolfraven (is this 1 or 2?)

To Cho'gall
-Agnesia

To Ric
-Cape Farewell

Corrections? Negotiations?

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Kildare (I lack actual data for. They never gave me a Fief or resident census. So I'm gonna fudge it to my best ability based on my incorrect memory of who's active and the forum. )

To revert to Imperial Control:
Gong Li
Norfolk
Raynor Isles
Automatica
Kitanus Fields
Nova Dalmacija
Blackrock
New Jasonia
Hallucination
Lesser Attera
Halluci Nua
Schlangen

To Andreas: (Is he still actually a cit.. I'm a little confused on this)
Melangia

To Jonas:
Greater Audentior

To W.Payne:
Vervollkommnung (?)
Hawshire-Dura

I'm sure this is all sorts of not accurate or even close. But it'll be what'll happen if SOMEONE from Kildare doesn't get me a corrected one.

[Allot]

Elwynn

To revert to the Imperial Government
-Cape Farewell
-Eliria and Utasia
-Smjörkýr
-Cimmeria and Avaldnes
-Illumination

To the Khan:
-Alalehzamin

To Allot:
-Araxion

To Scott:
-Hyperborea

To Leo:
-Wintergleam and Wolfraven It's 1

To Cho'gall
-Agnesia

Corrections? Negotiations?

Are you sure Daniel Llai/Ric doesn't care about Cape Farewell?

[Jacobus Loki]

Yardistanis, Kildarians, what has happened to you?

Eighth, I will not brook meaningless 'rebellion' under my reign.

If this doesn't sound like a meaningful reason, then I don't know what does.

(drums fingers, chews corner of mustache)

Maybe nobody cares enough. Heck, what am I talking about? I was gone for almost six months.

(Grumble, grumble...............)

[Andreas the Wise]

Erik - on the nature of my citizenship - I remain a citizen. And a Minister, until someone kicks me out. I've just said that I intend to be more active in Nelaga (because it needs me) and Gralus (because it interests me) than Shireroth (which in the last while hasn't interested me and at times has actively annoyed me). Melangia is my county, though I also feel strong attachment to Raynor Isles. Nobody else has ever done stuff in it since I've been here.

That said, this plan significantly interests me. When I got annoyed at Shireroth for being actively disinterested in recwar (as I use the term), I thought about what Shireroth means to me and what kept me here. And decided that the two things that had interested me were interesting things happening with the economy; and the ability to build up influence and power over time. But nothing much has happened with the economy of late; and I earnt my way up to Duke, and have no way of becoming Kaiser because I'm not going to give up citizenship in my other nations at the present time. So I thought "What is there left for me here?" I also totally agree that I'm annoyed at the way I've seen new citizens come in, get a county, and become Duke within a month because other people were inactive. When I came, I started as a count, worked my way up to Baron, and then it was almost a year before I became Duke, because Jonas was a good Duke and lasted a while. But, and this is important - when I became Duke I felt I'd earned it, and it meant something to me. Now? I could have been Duke of Kildare three more times if I'd wanted and hadn't been playing an evil character. PRH, I could probably have been Duke of Elwynn if I'd moved there to join in the RPing.

And so I think the House system has considerable merit. Yes, it needs to be fleshed out a bit, but it's a good idea. People should earn power and land over time, and definitely not just become Duke because they're the last person left in the 3 person Duchy who hasn't had a turn. In particular, it would mean two important things:
- People could legitimately gain more than one County.
- We can make all the people who deserve to be Dukes Dukes at the same time, and remove them when they don't deserve to be Dukes.
On the first - I basically did all the development in Atterock except for a little in Norfolk from Foghorn (who I would put down as seriously and chronically inactive) and building off what I could find in Old Hallucination. I think of it as my land; but I've never had any proper claim to it because the current system only allows me to be Count of one county per Duchy at a time.
On the second - Dukes in the sense of being head of house and voting in the Landsraad; not in the sense of necessarily being called Dukes or whatever.

The one serious flaw I see in this is the danger of land becoming discontinuous with history. I've always tried to build off what was there in Kildare, and I got lucky that I founded a new Barony and thus wasn't treading on anyone's toes. But I'd hate if someone came to Old Hallucination, say (a county I developed but don't have any control, as Baron or otherwise, over) and said "Nah, it's not a forest with ents and a Temple to Ryvenna; it's a huge desert with industrial complexes." I realise that that is what people should be able to do with undeveloped land; but I don't like the idea that land which is already developed can be wiped clean just because it's in nobody's house anymore. I guess for me, that would be solved in this system if I earnt the land that I developed over time (if this system had been in place when I first started); but that doesn't protect the land of people who were here a while ago and people choose to forget (like Austi if I hadn't tried to do Hallucination stuff there where possible).

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Kildare (I lack actual data for. They never gave me a Fief or resident census. So I'm gonna fudge it to my best ability based on my incorrect memory of who's active and the forum. )

To revert to Imperial Control:
Hawshire-Dura (What is this?)

That would be a result of this. So Hawshire-Dura should be under Payne.

[Ryan]

Yardistan plan of Action.

To become Imperial Lands
-Yardistan
-Naudia'Diva
-Musica (Doesn't Goldenbrook have that? meh)
-Mar Sara
-Penta Sara
-Agningas
-Poketto-shotō (is this what used to be Kanto?)
-Grand Directorate of Lac Glacei (this wasn't on the Fief census.. so what is it?)

To remain with Ryan
-Florin Sara

To remain with Greg
-Mirioth, Amity, and So Sara (is this 1 or 3 counties?)

To remain with Jake (if he wants them, otherwise to go to the Imperial Govenment)
-Western Absentia? (I'm a little confused how this is organized)

Did I miss any counties? Is there any negotiations to be done?

Goldenbrook does indeed have Musica. I just think that we never got around to moving the forum there considering both duchies have been fairly inactive as of late.

Lac Glacei is landless, and as a result of The Retreating Ice story, it will eventually be folded into Florencia/Florin Sara. Penta Sara was carved off of Florencia and should be folded back into it (it's the five islands to the immediate west of Florencia) and the name can be applied geographically rather than politically. I would really like to keep Mar Sara included in the package so I could retain the whole "Saran Isles" continuity, but if you feel it should revert to Imperial control I'll let you weigh that call.

MASS is a barony but, for Greg's sake, we should avoid breaking that up and let him keep it en masse. We can simply eliminate the county divisions within it.

Poketto-shoto can be disbanded entirely and folded into Western Absentia. It's a joke, and a useless one at that. So let's not waste any more energy on it.

I hope that clears things up a little.

[Jonas]

Kildare (I lack actual data for. They never gave me a Fief or resident census. So I'm gonna fudge it to my best ability based on my incorrect memory of who's active and the forum. )

I don't really am in the mood to do anything right now (+ a lack of time and interest). You can ask Andreas why (and it hasn't much to do with what happened with Leto).

Raynor Isles (is this Jonas'?)

No... I would have known it ifg they were.

Hawshire-Dura (What is this?)

You can't do that. Hawshire-Dura is a protectorate that was integrated in Kildare, Your Niftiness.

To Andreas: (Is he still actually a cit.. I'm a little confused on this)
Melangia

To Jonas:
Greater Audentior

Finally, I'm getting it back.

To W.Payne:
Vervollkommnung (?)

I'm sure this is all sorts of not accurate or even close. But it'll be what'll happen if SOMEONE from Kildare doesn't get me a corrected one.

You will not change OUR system! Kildare will never bow for these Imperial annexations!
I have some ideas myself, but the lack of time to post them or properly develop it.


And don't dare to put Shirekeep with the Duchy of Benacia...
I'm pretty sure that would be the goal of your reform plans...

Yardistanis, Kildarians, what has happened to you?

You're reading my mind, Jake.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

I'll respond to what I can right now.

Are you sure Daniel Llai/Ric doesn't care about Cape Farewell?

If he wants it I'll give it to him.

Jake: What is it you have complaint with?

Andreas: We can try to keep thing together. But yeah, I'm of the oppinion now that if someone leaves, their lands lose the "historical" protection they had when they were around. This is what I meant by lands being held "hostage" by inactive or missing people.

That would be a result of this. So Hawshire-Dura should be under Payne.

I will correct this.

Ryan: I have made the adjustments. And granted you Mar Sara, but would you be willing to give up your Sanct in exchange? I think I recall that you said you didn't use it, but I could be wrong.

Jonas: I saw that you had wanted that county, that's why I'm giving it to you. Also, you all can reform as a Major House. I figured you would, and I might even join your House. I haven't decided. So, the current system you have can be reinstated. And Shirekeep will remain under direct Kaiserial control as it has for some time. There will be no "Duchy" of Benacia.

Anything else needs addressing? More lands need be moved. Comments, complaints,,,questions?

[Ryan]

That's fine. I'll give Lightwave back to Straylight then.

[Jonas]

Jonas: I saw that you had wanted that county, that's why I'm giving it to you. Also, you all can reform as a Major House. I figured you would, and I might even join your House. I haven't decided. So, the current system you have can be reinstated.

Thank You, Your Niftiness. I want my county back.

But like I said: lack of time and other stuff are currently in the way of being active like usual.

Just a question about the House-system: would the outcome be something like this? With the possibility to give some powers to one person (the Duke / Dutch).
After reading the proposal more decent, I'm getting the impression that it could give us several new oppurtunities. And I'm getting some new ideas. Nonetheless, it's a big step, a very big step. But... I like adventures. And afterall, this is Shireroth. If you can't try it here, you can't try it anywhere!

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Yes. You can organize a House anyway you want.

By default, the Head of the House will have the title that grants the house it's status, and be in charge. Just like with Duchies. but in this case the title grants the land, not the other way round.

I'm glad this is peaking your interest Jonas.