Poll on Classes

[Santelran Rottsaa]

I'm interested in knowing what kind of topics people would like to see taught in the University. I want to still try and forward this as a micronational educational institution, and the best way I can think to do this is by teaching classes (and possibly also doing research initiatives, but that'll be for later). So, I ask, what would people like the learn?

[Harvey Steffke]

I'd like to learn what goes through your mind that makes you want to get kicked out of the country one day and want to teach classes the next.

But, barring that, I don't know. Micronational sociology is always interesting. Though that's a field that takes, like, work and stuff to prepare data for.

[Santelran Rottsaa]

I'd like to learn what goes through your mind that makes you want to get kicked out of the country one day and want to teach classes the next.

I keep this separate from the rest of Shireroth. Note how I'm a crazy fucker everywhere else, but get professional here. I'm actually curious to see if I can get a micronational institution of eduction to run and be successful.

[vasroe]

This is more of a discussion thread than a poll, but...

I would like to see more Shirerithian and micro-national history courses. I would also like to see some analysis of micro-national culture, past and present, that is presented through coursework. Finally I think the University needs to offer degrees, though not Bachelor's degrees. Do like Scotland and start with Master's then go on up to Doctor. You could do a Master and Doctor of Micronational History, for starters, then add ones for Shireroth specifically, such as Shirerithian Cultural Studies. You see these German Studies, Canadian Studies, French Studies, etc. degrees in real life, so maybe you could look at their courses and try and emulate them for Shireroth. I am a relatively new citizen, having been a citizen only before briefly, relatively speaking, so it would nice to learn more about things.

But don't go heavy on homework and grades. Just reading and writing a brief essay post should be enough to pass the class.

I once tried to start an Academy in Antica, which is why how I got so interested in academic matters in micronationalism. What happened there was another citizen was put in charge of it, and he went absent and then got angry at everyone in Antica, and nearly got himself banned. But my feeling was that he was not given the support (i.e., my help) that he needed to calm him down and get down to business. (He had some good ideas, as he was somewhat creative.) Antica always seems to let its projects slide and then fail, their Academy being an example. All while the kaiser's Imperial Republic continues to increase in power.

[Gareth Arthur]

This is more of a discussion thread than a poll, but...

I would like to see more Shirerithian and micro-national history courses. I would also like to see some analysis of micro-national culture, past and present, that is presented through coursework. Finally I think the University needs to offer degrees, though not Bachelor's degrees. Do like Scotland and start with Master's then go on up to Doctor. You could do a Master and Doctor of Micronational History, for starters, then add ones for Shireroth specifically, such as Shirerithian Cultural Studies. You see these German Studies, Canadian Studies, French Studies, etc. degrees in real life, so maybe you could look at their courses and try and emulate them for Shireroth. I am a relatively new citizen, having been a citizen only before briefly, relatively speaking, so it would nice to learn more about things.

But don't go heavy on homework and grades. Just reading and writing a brief essay post should be enough to pass the class.

I once tried to start an Academy in Antica, which is why how I got so interested in academic matters in micronationalism. What happened there was another citizen was put in charge of it, and he went absent and then got angry at everyone in Antica, and nearly got himself banned. But my feeling was that he was not given the support (i.e., my help) that he needed to calm him down and get down to business. (He had some good ideas, as he was somewhat creative.) Antica always seems to let its projects slide and then fail, their Academy being an example. All while the kaiser's Imperial Republic continues to increase in power.

You know, I agree with a lot of what you are proposing. I like the idea of "Shirerothian Cultural Studies" or "Shirerothian History" as a degree. These are courses/curricula that we can actually create. However, I do disagree with you on one point. We should issue Bachelor degrees (if only as a dual degree issued along with "graduate" level degrees).

I think that the best solution would be to have students who, with the advice of the university, write a paper on the topic for which they desire to earn a degree. Then, a committee, not unlike a thesis/dissertation board, would review the submitted work and vote on whether or not to confer a degree to the individual. The student's work would also be placed in an archive containing all other thesis/dissertation submissions to the university (this could be further separated by accepted and rejected of course). Then, in the future, other students could cite these previous papers in their own work.

I am fascinated with this concept. If the university approves of these ideas, I will be more than willing to take on the responsibility of building and operating this program.

What do you think?

[Kaiser Leto III]

Interesting ideas and I give the University a carte blanche and my full support. The Gryphon Avocatio Hall is the place to be (once everything is arranged, the administration will make a subforum / archive).

[Gareth Arthur]

Interesting ideas and I give the University a carte blanche and my full support. The Gryphon Avocatio Hall is the place to be (once everything is arranged, the administration will make a subforum / archive).

I'm quite happy to hear to that, Your Niftiness.

What does the Chancellor think? Should he concur with your assessment, I will start working on this project right away.

[Malliki Tosha]

The problem with requiring written tests and papers is that no one will do them. Many of us are still in school, and having to do school work in our hobby might not be the most interesting thing to do.

[Harvey Steffke]

I think that the best solution would be to have students who, with the advice of the university, write a paper on the topic for which they desire to earn a degree. Then, a committee, not unlike a thesis/dissertation board, would review the submitted work and vote on whether or not to confer a degree to the individual. The student's work would also be placed in an archive containing all other thesis/dissertation submissions to the university (this could be further separated by accepted and rejected of course). Then, in the future, other students could cite these previous papers in their own work.

This was an idea I wanted to incorporate when I was trying to set my own university. A single paper on the subject, written by each student before graduation, that would become part of the archives. Barony Tosha has the right of it that most of us don't want to be burdened with a lot of work in our hobby since we've had it for a dozen years or so in real life, but one paper wouldn't be that bad, especially given that the attendees would be interested in the topic (else why bother with the course at all?) and not forced to take it as some sort of requirement for graduation, so they should be able to put a little bit of heart into it.

[Gareth Arthur]

The problem with requiring written tests and papers is that no one will do them. Many of us are still in school, and having to do school work in our hobby might not be the most interesting thing to do.

It's just one little paper. I'm still a student as well, but I can find time to write a single paper about something that I am interested in.

I think the reason that "no one will do them" has more to do with a lack of incentive to complete the assignment. There really isn't an incentive to write the paper except for the cultural benefits that would come from original research. However, I've no doubt that at least a few people will be willing to contribute scholarly research towards a degree.

If anyone has an idea to provide an incentive to write a paper, please post it here.

[Malliki Tosha]

Perhaps the lowest degrees should only require attendance, and to get a higher one, you have to do assignments.

[Gareth Arthur]

Perhaps the lowest degrees should only require attendance, and to get a higher one, you have to do assignments.

I suppose that could work. I was planning on awarding a lower degree in addition to the higher degree upon acceptance of the paper.

But that doesn't solve the incentive dilemma. Perhaps degree recipients could be awarded badges similar to the award badges that are currently displayed beneath their names.

Of course, until I get the blessing of the Chancellor, none of this can happen.

[Malliki Tosha]

I don't think we have a Chancellor at the moment. Perhaps the lowest degree could be a requirement to form and be a member of the guilds.

[Gareth Arthur]

I don't think we have a Chancellor at the moment. Perhaps the lowest degree could be a requirement to form and be a member of the guilds.

Ah, there's a good idea. I like that. Each guild would have to create that requirement, correct?

2. Guilds will be limited to a specific area of economic activity, but within that area are allowed to require qualifications for membership with a basic framework drawn up by the Ministry of Trade. Guild members are also the only people allowed to charge for the service they render.

I was under the impression that Thomas Gaudin was the Chancellor (his name is listed as the moderator/chancellor at the top of the page). Am I wrong?

[Malliki Tosha]

Oh, I thought Corey was still Chancellor when he was exiled.

No, it would just take an Act of the Landsraad, since the guilds are regulated by the LawBook.

[Gareth Arthur]

Oh, I thought Corey was still Chancellor when he was exiled.

No, it would just take an Act of the Landsraad, since the guilds are regulated by the LawBook.

Apparently, he resigned and was replaced by Thomas Gaudin (here is the thread where he is appointed: http://shireroth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12349).

As soon as Mr. Gaudin agrees, I will write up the proposal and seek the first applicant.

[AryezturMejorkhor]

I would like to take some Micronational History classes if offered.

[Gareth Arthur]

Well, it seems as though the Chancellor is on an extended holiday.

With the Kaiser's approval, I will start work on this anyways.

Does His Niftiness object?

[Kaiser Leto III]

Does His Niftiness object?

No.

[W.Payne]

Perhaps the lowest degrees should only require attendance, and to get a higher one, you have to do assignments.

I suppose that could work. I was planning on awarding a lower degree in addition to the higher degree upon acceptance of the paper.

But that doesn't solve the incentive dilemma. Perhaps degree recipients could be awarded badges similar to the award badges that are currently displayed beneath their names.

Of course, until I get the blessing of the Chancellor, none of this can happen.

And I have a brilliant idea, if I do say so myself.
What if the incentive was that in order to get certain government jobs, one had to have some sort of degree? One good, quality essay or paper wouldn't be that hard to write. Say, for example, to get a job as Minister of something they had to have a Masters in whatever class, but to get a job as an assisstant, a bachelors degree would suffice. Nobility positions wouldn't have this requirement, of course. We could also grant honorary degrees for people who have done a lot of work in something. But these, in my opinion, should be rather rare.

Also, to be considered an authority on a certain topic or subject, one would have to have a Doctorate.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

As someone who's tried to run a few university classes before, let me explain a few pitfalls.

First of all, a class structure doesn't really mesh well with a forum based environment. Realistically unless we get IRC involved, all a class is going to be is a couple of threads on the forum called Micronational History Class Lecture I, Micronational History Class Lecture II, and so on. The more astute will therefore notice that there's no difference between a class and a textbook, except that one of them is more likely to be in forum posts and the other in .doc/.pdf format. I see no advantage whatsoever in having a formal "class" on micronational history compared to just telling people to read Microscope. In fact, several of the micronational history textbooks we have now were originally university classes (eg the Menelmacar Lectures).

Second of all, requiring degrees for government positions ignores the fact that several people already know things extremely well without a class. Let's say we open a class on Micronational Military Tactics, get Foghorn or someone as lecturer, and Ardashir doesn't feel like writing up the assignment so he doesn't take the class. Suddenly Ardashir's not qualified for the MoMA position, even though he probably knows ten times more than some newbie who just showed up and took the class. The same is true of taking a micronational history class versus actually being there. I'd hate to be the one who has to tell Harvey that he has to write a five paragraph essay on micronational history and turn it in for grading if he wants to continue being considered an "expert".

I think there's a use for a university in compiling a list of references, in being around to answer specific questions (like if someone wanted to know what caused the Menelmacar rift and couldn't find the answer in any history of Menelmacar they could get their hands on), in stimulating discussion, and maybe even in testing people and giving out for-status-only certification that yes, this guy knows a lot about Menelmacari history. But I don't know if formal class structures are the best way to do that.

[W.Payne]

As someone who's tried to run a few university classes before, let me explain a few pitfalls.

First of all, a class structure doesn't really mesh well with a forum based environment. Realistically unless we get IRC involved, all a class is going to be is a couple of threads on the forum called Micronational History Class Lecture I, Micronational History Class Lecture II, and so on. The more astute will therefore notice that there's no difference between a class and a textbook, except that one of them is more likely to be in forum posts and the other in .doc/.pdf format. I see no advantage whatsoever in having a formal "class" on micronational history compared to just telling people to read Microscope. In fact, several of the micronational history textbooks we have now were originally university classes (eg the Menelmacar Lectures).

Second of all, requiring degrees for government positions ignores the fact that several people already know things extremely well without a class. Let's say we open a class on Micronational Military Tactics, get Foghorn or someone as lecturer, and Ardashir doesn't feel like writing up the assignment so he doesn't take the class. Suddenly Ardashir's not qualified for the MoMA position, even though he probably knows ten times more than some newbie who just showed up and took the class. The same is true of taking a micronational history class versus actually being there. I'd hate to be the one who has to tell Harvey that he has to write a five paragraph essay on micronational history and turn it in for grading if he wants to continue being considered an "expert".

I think there's a use for a university in compiling a list of references, in being around to answer specific questions (like if someone wanted to know what caused the Menelmacar rift and couldn't find the answer in any history of Menelmacar they could get their hands on), in stimulating discussion, and maybe even in testing people and giving out for-status-only certification that yes, this guy knows a lot about Menelmacari history. But I don't know if formal class structures are the best way to do that.

Well, actually, that was the reason I included the idea about honorary degrees, for people who already knew alot about the subject. I'd figure that Ardashir and Harvey would be the first ones who received an honorary degree.

[Santelran Rottsaa]

Requiring degrees for things is, in my opinion, a pretty bad idea. Kinda makes this place into more work than a hobby. I think the purpose of any degrees that are handed out is pretty much just for show (and perhaps a bit of legitimacy in some fields).

[Gareth Arthur]

I don't think that requiring degrees for governmental jobs is a great idea. It would, I think, turn away many people who would otherwise be a great minister. Even though writing a paper isn't difficult, many people would view it as work (and thus, it would not be fun for them).

However, maybe if this project takes off and a number of people receive degrees, then we could talk about some sort of perk for completing degrees.

But, right now, this is something of a science project for me.