Notice of Discontent

[Harvey Steffke]

As per the house head's request that I attempt to work things out, I'm posting this topic. And if everyone gets all on my case about this I'll just say screw it and jump ship.

But yes. I am discontent.

I don't know how I keep ending up in houses with very different political views than I have but it certainly keeps happening. I don't support continual increased economic growth; the Kaiseress and the house head continue to propose resolutions forcing it. I don't understand at all the benefits of the house system over the duchy system (except, apparently, just to piss people off and stir the pot - it's doing that pretty well); you guys are hardcore supporters of it. I was hoping for a smaller but vocal house, challenging things and saying what needs to be said because someone needs to say it; instead I ended up in the largest house that spends most of its time telling other people to pipe down. And we have an extremely combative, confrontational Kaiseress that is making me have a very difficult time wanting to keep say things that need to be said because it feels like the country has been in the middle of a civil war for weeks.

I don't know what I expect you guys to do. Probably just say tough, these are our views, support them or get out. But I am making an extremely token attempt here so go ahead and say it and save us all a lot of time.

[Shyriath]

*shrugs* Not in my nature to get on peoples' cases, generally. About all I can say for my part is that I'd rather you didn't go, but if the political differences can't be resolved somehow, not much point in being where you'd rather not be...

Duke Erik, any answer to this?

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

I can give a semi-answer. I know I am being "combatant and confrontational". That is part of the point of my behavior. We have a tendency to pussy-foot around, not wanting to step on anyones' toes, in fear of the ragequit or conflict. Conflict is good, if we can learn to handle it. We have been piss-poor at handling conflict before, and we should learn to do it before pent-up aggression and frustration just kills everything. I know people on one side of the aisle that are pissed off at me for saying what I think needs to be said in the way I'm saying it, for supporting the House system, for kicking Jake when he was a pain in my ass, etc. I also know people on the other side of the aisle that are very frustrated at the whining crowd for always complaining about things. This could perhaps be a weakness in our non-democratic system.

As for you staying or leaving, well, I've always respected you Harvey, and I listen to you when I rule. I often don't agree with you, but I value your opinion. I would hate to see you leave Mortis, but if you really want to, I won't try to stop you.

[Erik Mortis]

I'm not sure whether to try to explain the benefits of the things I've been supporting, or to try to find ways to make our policies a bit more palatable to you.

I guess I'll start with the first.

1. Economy. I've been under the impression that as a nation we wanted an economy. That it was one of those 'holy grails' of micronations we've never achieved. Thus I've pushed for it. I've written bank code for it, created systems for it...etc. The House system has been partly created to work with it. Now maybe we should strive for more of a optional status for the economy, unfortunately, I think that will just be a rehash of one of the reasons they have always failed.

2. Houses. The fact that you could leave this house, and if you had land, take it with you, is a merit of the system. (do you want land?) The way it lends itself so well to an economy is another merit, but since you oppose the economy.. I guess that wouldn't be in your eyes. The way we have a way to know what "Imperial Line" someone comes from based on their house. Minor benefit, but I like it. The fluidity, the dynamic structure of nobility, land..etc. I think creates more potential for activity. I'm not happy that it's pissing people off. Also, I think anything was better then the old system, which was dead.

3. As for telling people to pipe down. That I don't see. If you mean Jonas and Jake. I might see how you would see that, but they aren't just being vocal, they are literally saying the same thing in ever post they make. No coherent arguments, no new ideas. Just the same rhetoric.

4. And it does feel like the nation has been in a civil war for weeks. I think that's part of some of the frustration. I honestly just want to get on with things and not have to fight the same fight every post I make.

I doubt I explained or assuaged you at all. Sadly, I'm out of time for the evening, most likely. I don't want to see you leave Harvey.

[Harvey Steffke]

My problem with the economy is that, after a decade, I've never seen it work in my favor ever. I never get paid for anything under any circumstances. Maybe I'm doing all of the wrong things all the time, but really, after ten years I'm done with waiting and don't really expect change. And everyone's solution to this sort of thing is "let's add more economy everywhere!" in the form of taxes and buying titles and stuff.

I wrote an essay like 5 years ago about this. It was lost in the EzCrash but there was a line something like "What does a person with no income do when they are confronted with taxes and things they have to buy to stay in the simulation? They drop out." Well, I finally decided to take my own theoretical advice on the matter.

It's not a holy grail. It's been unobtainable because it's hard to obtain. Economies only work when you have "haves" and "have nots"... and nobody is gunna sit around and be a have not without yelling. Myself definitely included. What we have right now isn't much different than the old FIoJ service-based economy, except instead of pirating copies of BGI video games because people don't have money you see protest threads like this. Point is, we aren't doing anything all that "right" this time around, and it's my opinion that we never can and so we should just stop trying and move on.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

We need to accommodate both those that want to have an economy and those that don't. I'm not sure in what way you are disadvantaged now that you have opted out of the economy.

[Erik Mortis]

He can't buy a title, thought he can still be appointed, so that breaks even. He'd lose his land if he couldn't pay the tax. Though I have an idea to deal with that. The Jacobus Fund. Paying Taxes for all the people who don't give a shit...

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

As long as we can fuck around with the economy and not have people ragequit over being disadvantaged, I'm for it.

[Andreas the Wise]

My problem with the economy is that, after a decade, I've never seen it work in my favor ever. I never get paid for anything under any circumstances. Maybe I'm doing all of the wrong things all the time, but really, after ten years I'm done with waiting and don't really expect change. And everyone's solution to this sort of thing is "let's add more economy everywhere!" in the form of taxes and buying titles and stuff.

I wasn't around five years ago; but you weren't around (in Shireroth) for most of Hesam's reign. The main defining feature of the Shirithian economy is the bounty system - that if you do stuff for the country, you get a financial reward. There have been times bounties have been done well (like in Hesam's reign) and there are times they have been done poorly (like the last 6 months). I suspect you've only been in Shireroth for the time when they've been done poorly; and ergo, not got any money from them. To fund the bounties, the country needs taxes every so often. Hence the current phase of tax reform. It should be acompanied by a phase of excessive and regular bountying, so if you stick around in the economy, you'd make money.

The actual selling of services happens sporadically, but has been useful when it has. Gralus, Nelaga and Shireroth all do sporadic selling of services*. Thing is, it only happens sporadically, because people don't always need new stuff and others aren't always willing to do stuff. Shireroth is the only one to do bounties, ergo the only one to need taxes. And, every so often (like in the current time) we try to connect more stuff with the economy. It would work better if everyone was happy to be involved in the economy and bounties were done properly. But it could also work with a clear opt-out possibility**, as long as the people who opt out accept that one of the consequences of them opting out is that they lose all right to complain about other things being added to the economy; and the people adding things to the economy accept that they have the responsibility to not make it impossible to do a thing non-economically.
Take buying titles. You have currently survived with not buying a title. If we grant people the right to buy a title (in addition to existing granting of them), and you are out of the economy, you will still survive with not buying a title. You just can't complain about it.

*Batavia is also doing cool stuff, though as most of their transaction logs are in dutch I don't know what they're doing. There's also the occasional minigame stuff like the SCX and adding recwars to the economy.
**Opting out would obviously make you not liable for any taxes falling on you personally.

[Harvey Steffke]

as long as the people who opt out accept that one of the consequences of them opting out is that they lose all right to complain about other things being added to the economy; and the people adding things to the economy accept that they have the responsibility to not make it impossible to do a thing non-economically.

The latter will never occur, thus the former (in as loud of words as possible) is necessary all the time.

[Andreas the Wise]

Then if you don't trust me, you can't opt out of the economy, I'm afraid.

[Harvey Steffke]

Not... quite following. I can't opt out? What are you going to do, give me more money? I have nothing.

It's not about not trusting you. It's about the fact that you don't control the country and the Kaiser. You're the well-known economic lover, and that's great, but you don't set policy. At best you give advice that may or may not be taken.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

I said elsewhere that people without money can't pay taxes. I also said that if you don't want to be in the economy, don't have an account.

[Andreas the Wise]

You're the well-known economic lover, and that's great, but you don't set policy. At best you give advice that may or may not be taken.

I would think my influence on the Shirithian economy more than that. And you did say that the latter will never occur, so I pointed out that I at least would be taking that responsibility seriously. Proper opting out implies no being held responsible for taxes as well as no meriting of bounties. If you're going to get that and still complain about each and every attempt to change taxes or award bounties or create new areas for the economy where nothing previously existed, then it defeats the point of those of us still in the economy officially creating a way to opt out. We might as well just force other people in your house to pay the taxes for you or revoke your titles and land down to zilch, then. And yes, I know you have no lands or titles at the moment.

Look, I'm trying to work with you and create a proper, official mechanism for being outside the economy and thus being outside all financial obligations. But you have to stay outside the economy and not complain about it. Otherwise, you can still do everything you can now and you just don't have to pay taxes, and then everyone will want to do that and the economy is destroyed. And the point of opting out is to allow the rest of us to use the economy and you to not worry about it. You can't opt out of something by destroying it. I don't approve of curing the disease by killing the patient.

[Harvey Steffke]

Otherwise, you can still do everything you can now and you just don't have to pay taxes, and then everyone will want to do that and the economy is destroyed.

You make it sound like a bad thing!

I jest, I jest! I know you take this seriously and I don't like telling people what they can do or be passionate about. The problem is that it works the other way too; I expect people to not force me to care about their interests. There is a LOT in micronations you can ignore. If I had no interest in Hyperborea I wouldn't read Scott's (brilliant) topics about their culture. Some people to micronational soccer tournaments or something and I've never cared about that. But this economic stuff keeps and keeps coming up and there seems to be no escape from it. Everyone's idea of utopia is a place where the economy works perfectly and everyone is shooting money around. Everyone except mine maybe, possibly because I don't get money shot at me.

I'm not outside the economic sim because I want to cause you all stress - I'm outside because I'm just so sick of sitting around waiting for some sort of magical tweak that opens the floodgates and makes it awesome. I just don't feel that it's ever going to happen like that. We get ministers that get bounties while AFK for a month and I write a hundred debatish-topics and don't see 1 erb from anyone at any time. I never made a single erb off any of the CoD2 releases over the decade, nothing. Why? Circumstance? Bad luck? Personal vendetta? There being some sort of law or policy that excludes me? I don't know. But it's hard to not take that sort of thing personally, ya know?

[Andreas the Wise]

You're not alone in disliking the economy - Jacobus is also very not keen on it. And I would think you not getting erbs is more circumstances and bad luck rather than any personal vendetta (I certainly intended to bounty you for University and related stuff next round, I was just doing the previous round based on up to a week or two before it started, because it's easier to reward things that are completed or at least have gone on the whole period). I'm just saying, if you want to ignore it, then ignore it, and don't complain about new things it does. It's like ...

Ah, I know the perfect example. It's like the Kildarians saying "We're going to ignore the House system and treat it like the Duchy system" and then every single time something is raised about the House system, complaining about it. With the difference that the Kildarians still lost land through the House system whereas you won't lose anything through not paying taxes if we organise opting out of the economy officially.

Tell you what (and this applies to you too, Jake). If you guys want to officially opt out of the economy, I will draft up the opt out bill to make sure that all current parts of the economy don't disadvantage you; and when we add new things to the economy, I'll make sure we add in a "For those opted out" section. So for example: buying thanes/Jarls, you guys can already earn it normally, so you earn it normally and don't pay fees. If we (Sakat forbid) linked the military into the economy again, we'd say "People opted out of the economy get 25 000 points worth of units" etc.

[Harvey Steffke]

All right. I can accept it on good faith. Though I'll still complain if I believe the straight and narrow path has been strayed from, much like you can complain if you think I'm complaining without due cause.

[Andreas the Wise]

Deal.

[Erik Mortis]

Now comes the complaints by those who had to earn their way in the economy seeing things, like points, just handed to those who opted out.

[Andreas the Wise]

Now comes the complaints by those who had to earn their way in the economy seeing things, like points, just handed to those who opted out.

You misunderstand. In the recwar example (a bad one because I hope we don't link it to the economy, but the best I could come up with), they would be given some average number of points. People in the economy with lots of money could still get above average values, which would be impossible for them.