Voting Rules

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Maximilian
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Voting Rules

Post by Maximilian »

Being the Primate still I'd like to bring up the issue that Erik already had with the voting in the Assembly. There aren't any rules or schedules we should meet. There is just a vague power the Primate has to 'oversee the Commonwealth Assembly'.

The question is: must we make rules (if yes, what rules?) on voting or must we give the Primate a confirmed power to impose rules himself?
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Allot »

There should be distinct voting rules in the General Membership Treaty (or wherever).
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Malliki Tosha »

There could be, but it's not necessary. The Assembly can make whatever rules it likes.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Harvey Steffke »

It's really just a matter of deciding something we can agree upon. Here's a basic first draft - feel free to suggest alterations.

1. Any representative can begin a vote on an issue that is within the Small Commonwealth's scope to decide.
a. If a representative feels that the debate has not concluded to the point where a vote can be held, they may motion for the vote to be tabled until the debate has concluded. This motion must be seconded and thirded. Upon success, the vote topic is no longer active and a new topic should be started for the vote after the debate has concluded. The primate will be in charge of deciding when the debate has concluded.
2. Valid votes shall be recognized as follows:
a. YEA - a desire for the vote to pass exactly as is.
b. NAY - a desire for the vote to not pass
c. ABSTAIN - the representative desires it to be known that they see the vote but do not enter an actual vote into the tally. Abstain votes are not counted for the purposes of determining percentage requirements for a vote to be considered passed.
d. In the event of elections or other votes with multiple options, valid votes are any of the choices plus abstain.
e. Alterations on any of the above wordings where the meaning can be reasonably inferred to mean one of the choices above shall be counted as appropriate. If the meaning cannot be reasonably inferred, any member has the right to motion for clarification. If clarification is not given, the vote shall be treated as an abstain.
3. Only votes may be cast in the vote topics. No debates are allowed. The Primate has the authority to delete or edit posts that diverge into debate.
4. Only representatives or their chosen and recognized emissaries may cast votes.
5. Representatives may edit their own votes at any point before the vote has concluded.
6. All voting periods will last 120 hours after the vote has begun, rounded up to the nearest full hour.
7. Unless otherwise specifically stated, all percentage requirements for votes to be considered passed shall be assumed to be based upon the number of votes actually cast, not based on the number of member states.
8. Once the 120 hours have passed, the vote is officially ended, even if the Primate has not concluded the vote and announced the results. Votes received after the 120 mark are invalid and editing votes after the 120 mark is considered a crime that will be investigated by the proper Small Commonwealth authorities.

tl;dr version: votes last 5 days. You can only vote in vote topics. Don't be confusing with your votes.

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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Malliki Tosha »

Editing of votes after the voting period should just be considered invalid. No Small Commonwealth institution has any criminal investigative authority.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Jonas »

2. Valid votes shall be recognized as follows:
a. YEA or VOOR - a desire for the vote to pass exactly as is.
b. NAY or TEGEN - a desire for the vote to not pass
c. ABSTAIN or ONTHOUDING - the representative desires it to be known that they see the vote but do not enter an actual vote into the tally. Abstain votes are not counted for the purposes of determining percentage requirements for a vote to be considered passed.
Amendment time! :p
votes last 5 days. You can only vote in vote topics. Don't be confusing with your votes.
5 days... hmmm. I don't know if that will be long enough for Batavian bureaucracy. :evil :D
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Harvey Steffke »

We conduct all business here in english. Consistency is the key to avoiding confusion. And five days is a pretty long time. Perhaps you could get the wheels of your bureaucracy moving during the debate phase of the proposal.

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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Jonas »

Harvey Steffke wrote:We conduct all business here in english. Consistency is the key to avoiding confusion.
What does it matter if we also use 'voor' or 'tegen'? Two member states are Dutch, and they don't demand to translate everything to Dutch. But giving them the right to vote in their language is the least that the other nations can grant them.
I assume that the Primate will have enough experience to know that Yea (no Aye?) = Voor. If not, I doubt that the Primate is sufficient for the job.
And five days is a pretty long time. Perhaps you could get the wheels of your bureaucracy moving during the debate phase of the proposal.
And I disagree: 1. because of the time zone it could be unfair and some nations would lose a day. That's in the case if the representative is present, when he misses a day again a day will be lost again (not everyone can be present every day).
In the light of this, Shireroth would have a time advantage, as it is their forum and they will know about the start of the voting period.
7 days is the minimum.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Malliki Tosha »

Does that right extend to all member nations, or just the Dutch ones? If it does, I think that Stormark should be allowed to vote in Swedish or Old Norse or whatever it is they're using, Ashkenatza in Yiddish etc. If it doesn't, I think we should keep English as the language of day-to-day business.

If the limit is stated as 120 hours, I fail to see how timezones can have any negative influence on that period. If it should be 120 hours or 168 hours can be discussed, but I don't see the timezone argument as valid.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Jonas »

Malliki Tosha wrote:Does that right extend to all member nations, or just the Dutch ones? If it does, I think that Stormark should be allowed to vote in Swedish or Old Norse or whatever it is they're using, Ashkenatza in Yiddish etc. If it doesn't, I think we should keep English as the language of day-to-day business.
Does these nations really use another language? No, they speak English, with some exceptions for official letters and cultural stuff. And I will not protest if a Swedish nation will ask the same 'privilige', a simple list of what means what should be sufficient.

If the limit is stated as 120 hours, I fail to see how timezones can have any negative influence on that period. If it should be 120 hours or 168 hours can be discussed, but I don't see the timezone argument as valid.
Because if someone opens the voting around 16:00 in his timezone, it will be more likely that more people of that timezone will react then those in which it's 23:00. We have the same time, but not the same (in)convenient hours to debate.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Malliki Tosha »

But you do speak English, or am I mistaken? You have the treaties translated, you have a Dutch speaking member of the Commonwealth Court. I understand that. But why do you need to vote in Dutch?

What is Nederlanden's view on this?

And the same applies the other way around. If you introduce something, citizens living in the US or Canada have a disadvantage.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Jonas »

Malliki Tosha wrote:But you do speak English, or am I mistaken? You have the treaties translated, you have a Dutch speaking member of the Commonwealth Court. I understand that. But why do you need to vote in Dutch?
I speak English (or something that sounds a bit like it), most of the Batavians do. But the actual language, which is usedin more then only cultural stuff, is Dutch. It's not like I want the debates in Dutch, what I ask is the right to vote in Dutch when we want it. It's symbolic. And in Nelaga there weren't any problems around it.

Besides, about the English version: I disagree with YEA, I support AYE. :evil :p

And the same applies the other way around. If you introduce something, citizens living in the US or Canada have a disadvantage.
Indeed, so it's better that we give some more days. The disadvantage doesn't disappear, but we get a bit more time. 7 days is better then 5.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Malliki Tosha »

Is this a wish by you personally or the Batavian government? I see a difference.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Jonas »

Malliki Tosha wrote:Is this a wish by you personally or the Batavian government? I see a difference.
I'm no minister, nor representative of any nation. But that doesn't mean that I can't object. And my opinion could become the wish of the Batavian government.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Malliki Tosha »

Okay. I would like to hear from Maximilian and Nihill.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Maximilian »

I'm here, ready to give my opinion on this interesting topic :demon

I really don't see why we should set a word that says one is in favor. If one is in favor he can make it clear in many ways, from saying 'yea' or 'aye' to 'Batavia is in favor' or something else. Determining these words causes people to want that their own language is recognized as a legal voting language. The way I see it the Small Commonwealth doesn't officially recognize any language as the official language. The stance of the Small Commonwealth towards its members is neutral and hence it is our obligation to accept the language of any nation we have accepted. We should therefore not make rules that say that we must do something in English (or another language).

Again, making rules on language will only result in nations with a different language will want an equal status for their language. Such a situation will only lead to EU-kind of situations.

Another thing I would dislike is that we would set a determined voting time. I think the Primate is able to judge how long a vote has to take and I think we should make him able to make the voting time longer. A pre-set voting time wouldn't make the job of Primate more interesting either.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Andreas the Wise »

I mean no offence to you or Erik, Max, but I don't feel it's good to let the Primate just 'decide' when the vote is finished. But I agree that time longer than 5 days would be good for getting many nations involved. How about this compromise:

Votes last for 7 days. If, before that time, the required quorum of treaty members have voted AYE, the vote can be closed and passed before that time.

So, for example, the General Membership treaty says it needs 1/3 AYES. Say there are 11 members. If 4 people vote AYE in two days, then 4/11 is greater than the 1/3 required; and so the vote is passed after 2 days, even though there are another 7 nations that could vote. But if people take a while to vote, say we get (in total), 3 AYES and 4 NAYS. After 7 days, that vote still passes (as 3/7 is greater than a third) but we waited to let other nations vote if they wanted.

Seven days is annoying for moving things fast, yes; but the reality is that the SC rarely deals with matters that need to move fast; and allowing a slightly longer pause to let everyone express their views that wants to is a worthwhile aim.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Malliki Tosha »

That voting rule is ambigous at best. What does "a 1/3rd plurality" even mean? I interpret it as meaning that the number of Ayes have to be greater than 1/3rd of the total number of members and greater than the number of Nay votes. I find it deeply undemocratic to pass votes where a majority votes Nay.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Allot »

Andreas the Wise wrote:If, before that time, the required quorum of treaty members have voted AYE, the vote can be closed and passed before that time.
We're going to have issues with this. Because of the situation you described, I don't think this can happen. I'm happy with 7 days waiting time though.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Erik Mortis »

The 1/3rd Plurality was only for admittance, which should be fast and easy. Thus a majority isn't needed, just some basic sense that not EVERYONE is opposed to the new comer. 50% or more seems excessive to just let someone into the General Membership Treaty. In the past organizations made all these hideously complicated procedures and percentages for becoming a member. That's why I supported the 1/3rd rule. If you can get at least 1/3rd of members to say okey, then you can't be THAT bad. I guess it's undemocratic for the reason that democracy = mob rule inherently. For just letting people in, we shouldn't let them mob rule. It will help any one nation and their close buddies from controlling who can get in, and thus who can vote.

And Andreas, which those words and references, I always used the voting procedures set down by the Assembly. I never just went with how I wanted to run things. If I had I would have passed the various reforms I put forth, but failed due to lack of votes.

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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Malliki Tosha »

Democracy is not mob rule. This is the Small Commonwealth and not Shireroth. Having nations being let in when a majority is opposed is not the way things should be in my opinion.

My compromise suggestion is that 1/3rd of the total membership has to vote Yea to let a nation in, unless there are more Nay votes.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Erik Mortis »

I just don't think it should require a complete majority. I think this is one situation where a minority should be allowed to get their way. It should be easy to get in.

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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Andreas the Wise »

Malliki, are you familiar with the phrase "Tyranny of the Majority"? It may have been coined by JS Mill (that's certainly where I came across it). It's the idea that, democractically, 51% of the population can vote to enslave the other 49%. A majority have agreed, so it must be good, right? No, of course not. And that situation (51-49) doesn't come up much; but Mill was aware you could get situations where a significant minority might be treated badly (say in a 80-10 way).

The point of this brief political science ramble is that Erik is right - membership in the SC should not be too hard to get; and even if a majority are opposed, we should let the nation have a go if it can get at least a third sponsoring its entry.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Malliki Tosha »

I am familiar with it, but I don't think it really applies to this situation in full. Also, those problems can be countered with constitutional protections, minority protection etc.

I respectfully disagree in this issue, but seeing as I'm not a representative I really have no say in the matter. Perhaps it should be put to the Assembly to decide on whether or not to keep this or not?

What I do think needs to be changed tho, and this is really from a Court perspective, is the formatting of various voting quota and rules.
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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Erik Mortis »

Yeah, I'm not a Rep either. and even if I become Primate again, I got no vote.

But I can agree on formatting fixes needing to be made.

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Re: Voting Rules

Post by Andreas the Wise »

Definitely agreed that the rules on quotas and stuff needs to be fixed.
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