The place of the SC forum

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Kaiser Malarbor I
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The place of the SC forum

Post by Kaiser Malarbor I »

The issue of moving the Small Commonwealth forum has come up, as it has before. Should the Small Commonwealth be hosted at a more neutral place, such as the MCS?

Your opinions, please. Here's mine: I'm not completely averse to the idea. I'm sure the SC could formalise a standard of discussion on its forum and appoint a moderator to deal with any issues of undue criticism, so I disagree with Jonas's criticism of the idea. I also disagree with Maksym's criticism, simply on the basis that I don't think anyone has actually directly asked the right person (spangle) at MCS about the issue of hosting.

The only big reason I'm against it is that for simple practical reasons it'd be like pushing in a pin with a claw hammer. For instance, moving the posts over in any reasonably useful way would be a lot of technical work, and *not* moving the posts over would cause a lot of frustration for people actually trying to do useful things with the SC. People would have to get used to finding the SC in a different place... and of course you wouldn't be able to deal with the negativity Jonas warned about without someone first taking the time to actually formalise that standard of discussion, and sticking around to actually moderate. This summit is an attempt to solve several of the current problems of the Commonwealth without taking any action that would require someone to actually do a lot of work. We can look into the move-the-forum level of effort later if this doesn't work.

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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Andreas the Wise »

I'm happy to stay here.
The character Andreas the Wise is on indefinite leave.
However, this account still manages:
Cla'Udi - Count of Melangia
Manuel - CEO of VBNC. For all you'll ever need.
Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy

And references may be made to Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn (a Nelagan Micron of undisclosed purpose).

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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Dr Bjorn Olsen »

Has anyone thought about having a Presidency? THIS forum would be the organisations Head Quaters for all time and would hold the archives etc.

Every 6 months the SC appoint a Member State to hold the Presidency of the organisation and for the duration of that time SC business is held on their own state forums?

Surely this would be of benefit to the host member state and would also give a neutral setting other than the MCS in peoples eyes perhaps.
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phineas elastopon
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by phineas elastopon »

I don't think Antica will be joining the SC while it is hosted on Shireroth. The idea of Presidency is unnecessarily bureaucratic. I like the idea put forward by the Kaiser: a neutral hosting situation, MCS being the most obvious choice.

I don't see the practical problem as being a large obstacle. Most of the posts in the SC forum are discursive anyway; I don't see a need to move them. Anyone could copy the relevant threads with 10 minutes of work- Treaty threads et cetera. Leave the archive here, and the problem solves itself.
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Gerk »

I really don't care where it is. The only problem I have of it being here is the fact that it's not on my home forum, and it's another forum, another site for me to worry about, but that's hardly a reason to change anything.
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Maximilian »

I've already expressed my doubts about moving the forum.

On the presidency thing: the NEVO (Dutch Treaty Organization) tried to work with this system and as someone already mentioned it is enormously bureaucratic and really not easy to work with. One would not be able to find the SC anymore and member nations would have to adapt their forums for it. Knowing micronationalists and their laziness this will cause problems.
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Erik Mortis »

Also, if we merge in with another organization, we are tied to them, their rules and their reputation. Not all nations will be on the MCS map necessarily. Might it seem we favor MCS nations? Seems silly, but since some nations refuse to join just because it's here, what means they won't oppose more to the MCS, or some other organization. And a completely new forum is kinda the same issue. Where will it be hosted? Who will pay for it? Who will have super-admin? How do we know they'll be there tomorrow, next month, next year?

I know it sounds cliche, but "It seems like a solution looking for a problem...". Lame.. yes. But, it's come up twice and both times we didn't think it that big a deal. (three now).

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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Erik Mortis »

Something dawned on me... If we move the SC off Shireroth hosting, we need to move the Bank Software. Moving the database and files isn't that big an issue really, as long as the host can handle them. But... I'd need access to both the SQL database and file access (at least for the bank software), since I'm the one that does all the bank software work. I don't see the MCS granting me access to the SQL database and server. More of an annoyance for me really, but figured I'd mention it was another thing dissuading me from liking the idea.

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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by phineas elastopon »

All of your criticisms are important ones that need to be dealt with, obviously. However
Also, if we merge in with another organization, we are tied to them, their rules and their reputation. Not all nations will be on the MCS map necessarily. Might it seem we favor MCS nations? Seems silly, but since some nations refuse to join just because it's here, what means they won't oppose more to the MCS, or some other organization.
The SC is currently tied to Shireroth inseparably. It seems like it favours Shireroth. Shireroth is one micronation, whereas the MCS is at least a multinational forum. As easy as it is to say "eeeeh that will be hard, let's just leave it so Shireroth is the hub of the New Microworld Order", if this organisation is serious about being a nifty, neutral international organisation, as the general feeling seems to be, steps need to be taken to demonstrate that.
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Harvey Steffke
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Harvey Steffke »

So we have to change our location because you can't change your perception of Shirerithin dominance? Despite the incredible showing of foreign nations at this summit? I do not feel that we should have to move our location specifically because a couple people enjoy disliking Shireroth. Perhaps if something were set in stone, aka a "Nations X and Y WILL join the SC if conditions a, b, and c are met" then it would be open to negotiation, but to move on the whims of a vague "general feeling" that only exists within a few, stubborn individuals shows appalling weakness on the part of the Small Commonwealth. No thank you.

Regarding the MCS, I always felt that they would make a great subcommittee under the SC. We have treaties for economics, we have treaties for recwars, why not a treaty for a map of Micras? :evil

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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Erik Mortis »

I've pondered that last one, but it wouldn't be worth the effort of trying.. :)

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phineas elastopon
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by phineas elastopon »

Well Harvey, Antica does want what the SC offers. We're especially interested in the SCUE and other international economic aspects. Antica can only get stronger through interaction with the community, and the community can only get stronger for having another nation on board. A belligerent attitude will make it seem pedantic, but I don't see why anyone would actually be opposed to making the SC seem more neutral even if it is completely neutral already.
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Maximilian »

Okay, let's say it 'seems' to many Anticans that the SC is a Shirerithian conspiracy. Why don't they come and take a look around here?

Something else: if Antica knows that the SC isn't a Shirerithian conspiracy and knows it is neutral, why doesn't Antica join?
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by phineas elastopon »

Okay, let's say it 'seems' to many Anticans that the SC is a Shirerithian conspiracy. Why don't they come and take a look around here?
That's the wonder of a conspiracy theorist. Openness is only more conducive to such theories.
Something else: if Antica knows that the SC isn't a Shirerithian conspiracy and knows it is neutral, why doesn't Antica join?
We don't know that. I was arguing from Harvey's point of view. I'm fairly sure it is, but I'm willing to give it a try, because many of its initiatives seem good and honest from the outside. But it would still be better if SC and SEP were not on the same forum.

Anyway, that's a silly digression. Back to the matter at hand.
Something dawned on me... If we move the SC off Shireroth hosting, we need to move the Bank Software. Moving the database and files isn't that big an issue really, as long as the host can handle them. But... I'd need access to both the SQL database and file access (at least for the bank software), since I'm the one that does all the bank software work. I don't see the MCS granting me access to the SQL database and server. More of an annoyance for me really, but figured I'd mention it was another thing dissuading me from liking the idea.
I'm almost certain that Spangle will give you access to whatever you need as and when you need it. Have you asked him?
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Jonas »

SEP?
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
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phineas elastopon
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by phineas elastopon »

Secret Evil Plans! :kiwi
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Maximilian »

phineas elastopon wrote: We don't know that. I was arguing from Harvey's point of view. I'm fairly sure it is, but I'm willing to give it a try, because many of its initiatives seem good and honest from the outside. But it would still be better if SC and SEP were not on the same forum.
Since I'm only Shirerithian on paper (because I'm too busy with other things than micronationalism) I don't get a thing of Antican-Shirerithian rivalry. Anyway, I think the Shirerithian forums are a good shelter for the SC. If however Shireroth starts to dislike the SC, stops being a member and kicks the SC out, we will have to find a new place to debate and that is what we will do when it becomes necessary. This is no offense on Shireroth, I'm just trying to show that the SC can live on without Shirerithian support, hence meaning that the Small Commonwealth is an independent organization.

I honestly don't see why we should move the SC to the MCS forums. I just thought of another thing considering the depency of the SC on the organization that hosts it's forum. The MCS is an organization that isn't bounded to any nation at all. Yes, if the MCS does something that pisses whatever nation X of, it will stop being on Micras. That's sort of the last move you can make as a nation if you want to show your disagreement to the MCS. Because the MCS is only bounded to nations in an extreme case, it can impose rules on the SC. This is, of course, only theory, I don't really think they would, but you never know who's going to be in charge within a year or so. A realistic rule the MCS might want to impose on the SC is that it may not talk about going in to war or make statements about war, since the MCS is a neutral organization that is supposed to host wars rather than having an opinion on them. If they'd allow the SC to talk about war plans or anything on their forums, their neutrality could be at stake. Furthermore the MCS did not invite the SC, the SC asked to use their forums. It's more or less the difference between living together with someone you like or renting a spare room to someone anonymous.
A member nation, whether it is Shireroth, Batavia, de Nederlanden, Nelaga or another nation, will never impose rules on the SC. That is because when a member nation does, it will recieve a lot of criticism, since it more or less tries to have influence on the ways of the SC. The member nation is more or less dependent on what the SC thinks about it.
Say that the position of Primate is vacant and the Secundus, who is a Shirerithian, is a bit hasty in appointing a new one and proposes, out of the blue, that we should vote immediately for a, let's say Shirerithian also, Primate. Because both are Shirerithian this will look like a Shirerithian conspiracy. Shireroth will be the bad guy and everyone would be grumpy on Shireroth. If the Secundus would be from a nation like de Nederlanden people would just say that the Secundus rushed things and that he needs to slow down. The fact that Shireroth hosts the SC forum is extra weight on the shoulders of the Shirerithians in the SC, because everything they do or leave in 'favor' of Shireroth might be seen as another part of a Shirerithian conspiracy.
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by phineas elastopon »

I honestly don't see why we should move the SC to the MCS forums. I just thought of another thing considering the depency of the SC on the organization that hosts it's forum. The MCS is an organization that isn't bounded to any nation at all. Yes, if the MCS does something that pisses whatever nation X of, it will stop being on Micras. That's sort of the last move you can make as a nation if you want to show your disagreement to the MCS. Because the MCS is only bounded to nations in an extreme case, it can impose rules on the SC.
I will say three things. 1) The MCS forum is the most stable neutral micronational forum that currently exists in our sector. It's been where it is longer than the vast majority of the micronations that live on the map.
A realistic rule the MCS might want to impose on the SC is that it may not talk about going in to war or make statements about war, since the MCS is a neutral organization that is supposed to host wars rather than having an opinion on them. If they'd allow the SC to talk about war plans or anything on their forums, their neutrality could be at stake.
2) The MCS regularly hosts wars. But I understand this was just a specific example. So, generally speaking, the MCS hosts other things and they can testify to the lack of interference there. Whatever you want to go, goes in your own forum in the MCS.
Furthermore the MCS did not invite the SC, the SC asked to use their forums. It's more or less the difference between living together with someone you like or renting a spare room to someone anonymous.
3) The MCS can in no way be described as anonymous to the SC. Shireroth, founder of the SC, also founded the MCS. Almost all of the SC member nations have had dealings with the MCS, significant and long-lasting dealings. The MCS is a firm friend to Shireroth, Natopia, Gralus, Stormark, and Hurmu. Amokolia and Kanto are more than familiar with Micras. And the MCS, I believe, would be more than happy to host the SC. It really isn't a farfetched idea.
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Harvey Steffke »

The problem with what you are saying though is mostly this:
Secondly, I am attending a conference in Shireroth at the invitation of Kaiser Malarbor (Ari) to discuss the Small Commonwealth. I urge all Anticans who are interested in the SC to attend and make their voices heard, as I intend to. The Small Commonwealth is rapidly becoming one of the larger intermicronational organisations in our sector, and as a consequence, regardless of whether Antica becomes a member, I would like to ensure that it is pure and not just a puppet show of Shirerithian imperialism. My main goal for this summit is to get the Small Commonwealth off the Shirerithian forums. I will never vote to join the SC while it is still hosted in Shireroth. Imagine if you have been fighting with a dragon for some decades, but finally, you come together and be friends. Now, even then, if the dragon invited you to floss some treasure/loot out from between its teeth, would you venture into its mouth? The SC, in my view, is not an option until it is nice and removed from Shireroth. I am eager to put Antica at the forefront of intermicronational politics, both in terms of influence and economic matters, and the SC could be a useful vehicle to do this. Also, the system of "sign or don't sign" layering of treaties is laudable. So, on that front, we will have to see what the consequences of this Summit are.
His own words, found at http://www.nafticon.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1721 . I copied the entire paragraph, you see, even the parts that don't necessarily support my position, because I do not want to be accused of anything shady.

I cannot properly put into words how little I care about your little Shireroth-Antica feud, but nevertheless it is grossly inappropriate to be talking about wanting neutral ground when you're still searching for some long-lost finale to a feud that apparently only you carry on for the fun of it. The MCS may be more neutral than Shireroth ground, but it is the decision to move it there you support so greatly is not. It's a completely politically charged attack on Shireroth and even if I wasn't a citizen of Shireroth I would still oppose such things on general principles of not allowing nonmembers to use SC policy to attack members. You have no reasons stronger to want to support moving the Small Commonwealth so greatly than just wanting to get the last laugh on an old enemy.

There's a bunch of other arguments for why we shouldn't move the SC - the MCS members having an agenda of their own that is far from neutral and shouldn't just be taken at face value because they host a forum that's not part of a micronation directly - the fact that the MCS grants Erik no recognition or honor for founding the organization and is actually quite hostile towards him (actually that's mostly you, I think) - the fact that it would be far more proper for you to become a member and then launch your campaign to try to move the forum - the fact that you support the MCS almost certainly has something to do with you being on the council there - already mentioned good ones like not having all the topics in place and issues with the bank - and apparently you being the sole person that wants this in Antica yet speaking for the rest of the nation because the nation doesn't have too many other people speaking these days. Etc etc etc. I could go on but I have to same some for if this debate continues. Your arguments are full of holes, but that's understandable, because you're just sort of throwing them up as an attempt to disguise your frothing dislike of Shireroth.

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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by phineas elastopon »

TL;DR version of this post (sorry it just went on and on): Harvey is wrong about nearly everything, specifics below; I was in character when I made that post; I am out of character now, in my dealings with the SC and of course on the MCS.

Harvey, it really is a shame that you believe that. :( I will refute everything you just said, obviously, but on a personal level, it pains me to think you don't know me at all. I know you honestly believe what you just wrote. I was a citizen for years, Harvey. I was here before Erik came back, when it was Jonas, Jacobus, Carol, me bouncing around not posting. I was granted honourary citizenship. I don't hate Shireroth. I love Shireroth. And... your words actually worry me. This is the problem with the #micronations crowd- you all chat amongst yourself and develop your own fictional world within our fictional world. Bill accused me of hating Shireroth, too. But he's Bill and is inclined to such fallacies. I don't know you all that well, Harvey, but I thought you were a stand-up guy with a good brain between his head who could tell the difference between in-character and out-of-character.

Now, anyway, to the matter at hand. That speech is a speech from Antica, yes. It was posted in Antica for Anticans. That doesn't mean I'm trying to hide it from you all- please, read it. It was a public address, and the more the merrier. But like I say, I did write it as an Antican. And my Antican persona is vehemently anti-Shireroth. He remembers Delphi and he remembers all the pain Shireroth put Antica through. He's a fun guy. Have you met Malliki's Antican personality? You know, the famous Shirerithian? Yeah, he started a thread in the Antican Assembly called "The Shirerithian pigdogs". Now this is me, Benkern, talking. I'm here at this conference as a real person- well, a fake person, I guess- a micronationalist. Not any of my characters, like Phineas Elastopon or Bacchus. I'm here because I care about this hobby.

If you had cared to actually read the text of the speech, Harvey- and yes, to clear this up, I am being hostile towards you, after that unprecedently ignorant attack on me- you would have not got out of it what you did. Let me quote it.
The Small Commonwealth is rapidly becoming one of the larger intermicronational organisations in our sector, and as a consequence, regardless of whether Antica becomes a member, I would like to ensure that it is pure and not just a puppet show of Shirerithian imperialism. My main goal for this summit is to get the Small Commonwealth off the Shirerithian forums. I will never vote to join the SC while it is still hosted in Shireroth.
What am I saying there? Harvey, you probably read that and saw "I will never vote to join the SC while it is hosted in Shireroth" and your brain immediately clicked "HOSTILITY TO SHIREROTH!!!!" Instead, it says the SC is a good thing. But I want it to be neutral. Doesn't everyone want that? Erik is the only person who has constructively dealt with this issue in this thread I feel. He has just asked about the practicalities of moving. He has not jumped on me for suggesting that a Shirerithian-founded organisation based in Shireroth might seem biased. I think that is perfectly reasonable, hence why I believe it. Through reason. Unlike your accusations, Harvey, which are founded on, I dunno, something akin to dust and lies.
Imagine if you have been fighting with a dragon for some decades, but finally, you come together and be friends. Now, even then, if the dragon invited you to floss some treasure/loot out from between its teeth, would you venture into its mouth?
Read the friggin' metaphor! Again, did your brain just click when you saw the semblance of hostility towards Shireroth? I likened Shireroth to a dragon who we're now friends with! Does that incline itself towards "some long-lost finale"? Jeez, Harvey, it says the complete opposite. It says we should be wary. And there's nothing wrong with being wary. Even Phineas Elastopon sees the Antica-Shireroth fight as being over. Doesn't mean he's not bitter. Doesn't mean he isn't distrustful of the Imperial Republic.

Now, these MCS arguments.
the MCS members having an agenda of their own that is far from neutral and shouldn't just be taken at face value because they host a forum that's not part of a micronation directly - the fact that the MCS grants Erik no recognition or honor for founding the organization and is actually quite hostile towards him (actually that's mostly you, I think)... the fact that you support the MCS almost certainly has something to do with you being on the council there
The MCS does have an agenda. It's to help this community. I can't speak for every Council member, but by god, that is quite a heinous accusation you just levelled without proof. There is not a single thing I hold more dear to me in this hobby than my participation in the MCS, and that would be just as good whether I was on the Council or not. The MCS is an organisation that exists to serve people. It's not without bureaucracy, politics, or personalities, of course- but the suggestions you are making are hurtful and needless to say baseless.

As for Erik having no honour. Again, a complete lie. Check the official Claims map. His name, and that of all the other cartographers, is listed bottom right. Although, of course, he and Scott are given preference, and the listing is chronological rather than alphabetical. That is a mighty honour, sir. What more can Erik ask for? Most people would say- nothing. A wonderful creation it was, Erik is to be congratulated and thanked, honoured, but have no special power. But he already does despite your claim. He has access to Administrative Discussion boards, closed to the public, to bring ideas and concerns straight to the Admin Council. That facility- the creation of "Honorary Staff", ex-staff who have discussive rights- was done specifically for him and others like him. Erik, apart from Harvey, I would like to address you. You founded the MCS, and that is something I'm so thankful for. If it ever seems like I don't like you or laud you enough, it must only seem so, because in fact I respect you and and grateful towards you. Not, mind, enough to let you dictate policy- but you know that, and you won't try to do that, just as here in Shireroth you avoid "Founder" privileges/titles. Harvey is just being slanderous but I have noticed that his words hold some sway so let me denounce his words as just that now- slander.
Your arguments are full of holes, but that's understandable, because you're just sort of throwing them up as an attempt to disguise your frothing dislike of Shireroth.
I must begin to sound like a broken record, but that is just not true. If you've been psychoanalysing me from afar or something- you seem to know a lot about what goes on in Antica despite your lack of posting even when a citizen- you're way off track. Like, almost completely, in every regard. Problem is, I think you spend too much time talking to other people who don't know me, about me. As a consequence, you've built up this rather amusing image of me as having a "frothing dislike of Shireroth". That would be laughable, but you do believe it. Mostly just depressing. I'm terribly sorry I haven't been around enough on Shireroth for you to get to know me, and I'm sorry I disapprove of IRC chat and hence am not a #micronations frequenter. But frankly, after that shocking display of ignorance, pre-judgement, and hatefulness based on nothing, I am glad to say I don't know you very well.
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Harvey Steffke »

In character and out of character justifying having two entirely different political viewpoints? Good Lord, I haven't seen that one in close to a decade since the old Thomas Hubert days. Save the characters for role playing and the recwars and leave them out of politics. Some of us aren't interested in trying to work though which one of people's imaginary friends have control of the keyboard. At least tag these with an [out of character: I don't really feel this way politically.] or something if you want people to take you seriously in the future. I apologize for my personal attack on you solely on the principle that anything perceived as a personal attack is inappropriate, but in light of your apparently confusing habits of creating personas of yourself that have different viewpoints, I do not feel that I committed much wrongdoing.

Regarding certain MCS arguments, perhaps it would be best if I let Erik handle how he believes you treat him these days. If he will post or not is his decision; nevertheless, I am confident what he would have to say about his treatment would not be overly flattering. There is a great deal of difference between tagging a man's name on the map and treating him with respect when interacting with him.

In any event, back on topic, my stance on this issue is that non-members of the Small Commonwealth are invited to come here, observe, and share their views, but ultimate policy will be handled solely by members. To get away from the personal attacks, I feel it is fully unreasonable to expect us to move when you're not a member. If you want to see the Small Commonwealth change, become a member and change it from the inside. It's really *not* that hard to do. In fact, the only reason the "Shirerithian dominance" argument still holds any water is because here we have the Kaiser of Shireroth hosting this summit, not because he is in charge somehow but because nobody else was going to get around to doing it. Us included, as it turns out, since we just waited for him to do it. If you feel oh so passionately about moving the Small Commonwealth to a different location, then it's up to you to take the first steps, not us. We talked about it before and decided we didn't want to. If a member starts another proposal on the topic of moving, of course it will be treated as legitimate and the resolution be binding, but no member has proposed any such new resolution to the body nor do many of the current member states seem overly enthusiastic about the prospect. You'd have your work cut out for you even on the inside and I gotta say that tossing around words like slander and unsupported accusation aren't making your case amazingly more appealing. Feel free to apologize for that at your leisure, by the way - in case you missed it, I did apologize first.

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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by phineas elastopon »

If that constituted an apology, I also apologise, although given the fact that your comments were both hurtful and misleading, I don't feel like I committed much wrongdoing either. Here's an idea, it works quite well for me. Instead of building up some kind of profile about someone to whip out whenever you need to discredit them in public, actually consider what they say and respond to that. That would be far more constructive. But enough of that, we can argue for pages and pages about how douchey we both are.
I feel it is fully unreasonable to expect us to move when you're not a member. If you want to see the Small Commonwealth change, become a member and change it from the inside. It's really *not* that hard to do. In fact, the only reason the "Shirerithian dominance" argument still holds any water is because here we have the Kaiser of Shireroth hosting this summit, not because he is in charge somehow but because nobody else was going to get around to doing it. Us included, as it turns out, since we just waited for him to do it. If you feel oh so passionately about moving the Small Commonwealth to a different location, then it's up to you to take the first steps, not us. We talked about it before and decided we didn't want to. If a member starts another proposal on the topic of moving, of course it will be treated as legitimate and the resolution be binding, but no member has proposed any such new resolution to the body nor do many of the current member states seem overly enthusiastic about the prospect.
Well, I was under the impression your Kaiser was taking the first step by inviting me here. What's the point of this conference if not to provide direction to the SC, work out what has been learnt from the early months of the project, and conciliate all viewpoints regarding the future? Antica is a natural member of the SC. It makes sense. Shireroth and Antica have a long shared history; both nations know the other can be trusted ("yeah, trusted to be untrustworthy!" :smashy), and interaction between micronations should be based on such trust. So basically, this is me saying, "Antica would like to join. Would it be k if SC moved off Shireroth?" If the answer is no, then Antica won't join. If yes, then, well, I think I already mentioned democracy. My attendance of this summit is part of an effort to bring us closer together. I haven't simply sent an ultimatum saying "CHANGE OR WE NO JOIN", I have tried to argue the point, although obviously quickly things have got out of hand. Still, if the organisation is unwilling to adapt, that's fine. We won't join. I was just rather looking forward to more economic interaction with Shireroth and other SC members, such as we are currently embarking upon with Ashkenatza. I haven't seen any definitive no, and I haven't seen any resolution saying that I can't contribute if I am not a member. (Like I said, I didn't just turn up, I was invited. I assume that invitation was to contribute, not just to watch.) So I will stay and keep trying to argue the point.
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Harvey Steffke
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Harvey Steffke »

Ari is my Kaiser in the sense that I am a citizen of Shireroth, but this summit and on matters of the Small Commonwealth I am Secondus first, representative of Nelaga second, and citizen of Shireroth third. I support his effort to host this summit exactly the same as I would support the summit if any other member nation citizen had started it. Who started it matters little to me; what matters is that we're here now talking about things that needed to be talked about. And while I honor his invititation to you to come here and say your peace, as the Kaiser of Shireroth has no standing in this Commonwealth besides being a citizen of a member nation, his asking you here holds no backing beyond what you two make of it yourselves. If this is the beginning of a beautiful new friendship is up to you two and holds no political power within the workings of the SC itself.

And while you are making arguments, some of which do hold water, ultimately what you say does unfortunately boil down to "CHANGE OR WE NO JOIN" in the sense that there is no condition other than us changing (specifically: moving) that will get you to join. They're occasionally well-reasoned arguments, yes, but there isn't the slightest hint of any condition of you joining other than doing what you say. This is still an unacceptable position for me. It is akin to me demanding your removal of Speaker of Antica; as a non-citizen of Antica, no matter what arguments I make, you would be quite justified in refusing on the simple principle of not wishing outsiders to meddle in Antican affairs. If you did decide to resign for whatever reason, it would be your decision, not mine.

But the weird part about all this to me is that you yourself admit that the Small Commonwealth is generally a good thing, would be beneficial to Antica, and that it's natural for you to join. I know not what plans you have to revitalize Antica, but (and here I overstep my bounds slightly and offer personal advice) it has never been my experience that isolationism is the answer. While you certainly do not "need" the Small Commonwealth to help Antica recover, I cannot think of any way it could actually harm you, especially given the fact that if you discover it is harming you somehow you can terminate all connections instantly at any time of your choosing.

You apparently want to join but cannot. The only conclusion I can find for your actions, therefore, is either national or personal pride, possibly both. You proclaimed quite loudly your intentions about not joining if the Small Commonwealth is hosted on Shireroth and now you feel you have to go through with them, even if your available method of just telling us to do it over and over and hoping we eventually agree is impractical. And no doubt you truly believe what you say about Shirerithian dominance and all that. I haven't asked you for specifics on that front because I didn't want to force you to dig yourself any deeper and alienate the non-Shirerithians at this summit that do not feel very dominated. I still have hopes we can work this out reasonably. All I can say is that I hope you can overcome this hurdle you've built up for yourself, join as an equal as everyone before you has managed to do with minimum humility and indignation, and then proceed with your agenda as you see fit.
Last edited by Harvey Steffke on Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Erik Mortis »

ugh... I really don't get the Antica v Shireroth stuff. Never have.. never will. I've never really cared one way or the other about Antica. It's just another nation I don't go to or know much about. So, I'm gonna say this.. if there is.. or was.. hostility between the nations, it's not from the Shireroth side, at least that I've noticed. Maybe a joke now and again, but mostly nothing serious... But if Antica wants to be...uptight about Shireoth, I don't really care. Not my problem, as it doesn't interfere with our government.

As for how I'm treated in the MCS... Can't say I feel welcome there. I'll leave it at that and get back to the matter at hand.

The way to resolve this is to put it before the assembly for vote. This will be the 3rd time it has gone before the assembly. I believe the first two times failed with only one vote in assent. If Antica refuses to join due to the location, that's there choice. It's a pity, the SC would love to have your voice added to the Assembly, but we can't force you to join. Happy trails, and hope you change your mind, we'll leave a light on..etc..etc.

However, about the stablity of the MCS forums. I'm myself kinda ...hesitant considering the forums, site and domain were still controlled by Pete. Someone I can't say I cared much for due to various policies and behaviors. Some of which the MCS council still exhibits. Maybe Spangle has gotten everything out from Pete's control, I don't know. But this does lend itself to my disquiet at hosting on the MCS site. On the MCS site we get no say on who controls the boards. At least on a member's site we would get a say as an organization. Shireroth as a host also provides known stability, much like the MCS does in theory provide.

But like I said, we'll just put this before the Assembly again. I can't, I'm not a rep. But a current one could put it forward again. Let Democracy have it's sway as you seem to want. What more can Antica really ask? You want us to change, we'll have to put it before the Assembly. If they say no, the SC stays. If they say yes, it moves and we can deal with technical matters and vote on where to go to.

The SC is 100% accountable to it's members. The Primate/Secundus cannot make unilateral decisions on more then trivial matters, and even then. The General Assembly has the real power to make things happen.

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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Andreas the Wise »

I suppose the real question is:
Are there any nations other than Antica who still feel strongly that Shireroth is dominating the SC? If there are, then that might be a legitimate reason to change it. If there aren't, I'd be tempted to put down the bias largely to IC tensions, because I'm 90% sure you and Chrimigules at least know that it isn't a Shirithian puppet and that non-Shirithians yell at you when you make that claim. And I know Malliki knows. So, yeah ... are there other nations who still feel that the SC is a Shirithian puppet?

(by the by, did you read the name topic, and the connotations of Small Commonwealth with 'Not a Babkhan Plot like the Grand Commonwealth' - consider those addressed at Antica IC)
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Chrimigules »

Hello everybody!

There are two matters. There is strong interest in Antica to join the Small Commonwealth. There is also strong interest in Antica that the Small Commonwealth move to the MCS. Separate things. I think the heat of the argument has conflated them together.
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Erik Mortis »

Well, the first one is an Antican matter. The second is a SC matter, which Antica is not a member of. Thus some of the angst from this side. It looks like Antica is trying to tell the SC how to run thing, yet isn't a member. And while the Antica opinion as an outside nation is valued, it's apparent stance that it refuses to join until such a move happens, looks to some like Antica is trying to dictate SC policy, without being even a member to start with.

How would it look if say, Victoria (not picking on you, needed a country), said they wanted to join but would never join an organization without the forums being in the GSO (I know it's dead), or in with the OAM (random organization I remember). Or it would never join if Shireroth was even a member. While Victoria may be able to produce several good points why some of those things should be, by tagging that they won't join until those things happen, kinda doesn't look good for them. Makes them look like they are trying to blackmail the SC. (Once again, I just picked Victoria as a random nation not in the SC that came to mind quickly. I doubt any of these things are true).

And from a bargaining standpoint, Antica has no power or sway in this. Antica may be a nation we want to join, but it's just one nation. There are many many out there. The SC isn't going to try to change things just to appease one nation that MIGHT join if the SC does something to placate them.

But, like I said... someone bring this to the Assembly. If a member nation cares enough about this to bring it before the Assembly, it will be voted on fairly and democratically. The outcome being upheld. Till that happens, Thank you Antica for your input. It has been considered.

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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Chrimigules »

Anticans were invited to this summit by the Shirerithian Kaiser, and in it, he said:
So, hey, I just opened (about an hour ago) a summit to discuss various subjects that are mostly of Small Commonwealth interest... but I was thinking you guys might have opinions about it, too (there's some stuff about the united economy in there, for instance), so you might want to have a look :)
And we have voiced our opinion. As Antica's Speaker of the Assembly, Phineas Elastopon, has stated, he supports the suggestion that the Small Commonwealth's administration ought to be moved to a neutral position, and that he personally most likely will not vote in favor of SC membership in Antica if the SC remains hosted in Shireroth. He has repeatedly stated that he is not issuing any sort of ultimatum that if the SC does not move, Antica will not join. He then responded to the arguments against the possibility of the MCS. That its webadmin is fairly likely to give the Small Commonwealth a free hand and whatever SQL database access is necessary for its operations to run smoothly. That as much as Harvey seems to paranoiacally suspect that the MCS is plotting some grand conspiracy, it isn't. That there would be no need to move old posts over there because they could easily be archived here, the important information reposted there, and a forumlink be set up to allow people there to view the archives here. That the MCS has done its best to remain fundamentally neutral and yet is still capable of hosting other intermicronational things.

And then the response from you, Erik and Harvey, is that the Small Commonwealth ought to effectively conquer the MCS (and considering that it's been Small Commonwealth policy to not allow non-members to participate in SC organizations, by implication limit the MCS to SC members), and accusing us Anticans for being on some sort of Quixotic quest for glory simply because we disagree with you. We are not here to dictate policy, so please, get rid of that strawman. We were invited here to give our opinion and discuss things, and we intend to do so. Perhaps you are here for another reason.
Andreas the Wise wrote:I suppose the real question is:
Are there any nations other than Antica who still feel strongly that Shireroth is dominating the SC? If there are, then that might be a legitimate reason to change it. If there aren't, I'd be tempted to put down the bias largely to IC tensions, because I'm 90% sure you and Chrimigules at least know that it isn't a Shirithian puppet and that non-Shirithians yell at you when you make that claim. And I know Malliki knows. So, yeah ... are there other nations who still feel that the SC is a Shirithian puppet?

(by the by, did you read the name topic, and the connotations of Small Commonwealth with 'Not a Babkhan Plot like the Grand Commonwealth' - consider those addressed at Antica IC)
I think that Phineas's and my positions are less that there is definite, overt control of the Small Commonwealth by Shireroth (The way that the Small Commonwealth is structured helps to prevents overt control), as much as it is a matter that there is potential for it to have hegemonic influence, which we seek to mitigate. Shireroth helped found it, and it was originally founded for the purposes of aggrandizing Shireroth, though we do recognize that it has long since lost that purpose in favor of a better one. It is hosted on the Shirerithian boards, which ensures that Shirerithians and dual-citizens with Shireroth are more likely to keep tabs on SC matters than non-Shirerithians and non-dual-citizens. But that is also not quite the situation. I'm not a Shirerithian citizen, but out of habit I like to see what is going on in Shireroth and thus I automatically also keep tabs on SC matters.

As Gerk has pointed out, his own problem is that the SC is simply hosted on another micronation's forums. That cannot be solved (unless, of course, the SC moved to his micronation, which will just produce same problem for Shirerithians), but it can at least be made more fair by moving it to a location that many people go to already but is not specifically aligned with any micronation. The MCS is the best example of this. As far as I am aware, all or nearly all members of the SC also have territory on Micras. And Micronationalists from all over and beyond this sector go to the MCS, meaning that the Small Commonwealth will be guaranteed more visibility.
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Malliki Tosha »

Chrimigules wrote:That as much as HarveyAntica seems to paranoiacally suspect that the MCSShireroth is plotting some grand conspiracy, it isn't.
I rest my case.
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Re: The place of the SC forum

Post by Chrimigules »

I just said that I don't think that Shireroth is plotting a conspiracy. You fail.
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