[Debate] Scott and Harvey on "following your dreams"

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Scott of Hyperborea
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[Debate] Scott and Harvey on "following your dreams"

Post by Scott of Hyperborea »

I want to formally write up part of a discussion Harvey and I have been having about "follow your dreams" versus "do what's practical" in micronations. Specifically, my part. Maybe then Harvey can reply and turn it into a semi-formal debate.

There's a tendency for a lot of micronationalists to immediately found their own micronation, stick with it for a while, and then become members of some other community only after it doesn't work. Many people have the urge to express their own creative vision with a micronation exactly the way they want it, with themselves in charge.

This leads to the famous "too many chiefs, not enough Indians" problem. If twenty people have twenty micronations, all of their micronations are going to suck. Thanks to the magic of dual citizenship, they're not all necessarily going to be one-person nations - but they're going to be nations of a few people, with only one or two people whose focus and creative energies are on that particular country.

If the activity of a single country with all twenty people is X, then each of these twenty little countries will have an activity level of...maybe not quite as low as .05X, but somewhere in that range. This might not sound so bad. After all, the sum total activity is the same or maybe even greater, and everyone gets to follow their own little creative vision. This might be something like Harvey's point, though I don't want to put words in his mouth.

However, there are limits to what you can do in a one or two person country that prevent the creative vision from ever getting all that interesting. Consider the analogy of pixels and art. Let's say you can scan in the Mona Lisa onto a 100 x 100 pixel square without it losing too much quality. The Mona Lisa here representing a successful creative vision. 10,000 1-pixel squares contain exactly the same amount of pixels as the Mona Lisa. But summing up ten thousand 1-pixel works of art will never get you the same amount of art as that one Mona Lisa, simply because you can't make art in one pixel. There are some pieces of art you can't do really well without hundreds of thousands of pixels to work on.

Small micronations are mostly institutional clones of each other. One may be Egyptian-based, another German-based, but they've all got a couple of government forums, a few province forums, occasional cabinet meetings or whatever. They may have a brilliant con-culture appended onto that, but in terms of the actual nuts-and-bolts of it, it's always that same basic structure. There's no opportunity for anything like complex role-playing, internal recwars, economic simulations, universities, competitions, factional conflicts, competing corporations, shady plotting, sports leagues, or the like. The opportunity for any real creativity is limited to endless con-culturing - which can be really good, but is only one domain out of many possible ones.

Our community has partly solved these problems by internationalizing them. I think a foreigner might look at our community as being one nation (the MCS) with lots of little appended statelets. But if a group wants to have any sort of interesting internal dynamics beyond what the MCS can provide, it needs a critical mass of people.

This creates what can only be called an ethical dilemma. It's similar to a prisoner's dilemma, in fact. Defect is to found your own country. Cooperate is to join someone else's. If everyone cooperates, you get one big country that's sort of a bland mishmash of everyone's creative visions. If you defect and everyone else cooperates, you get a large and interesting country built to your creative vision - so there's a strong incentive to defect. But if everyone defects, you get twenty small countries that can't do anything - so the incentive to defect is really the voice of the devil.

Note that this same dilemma exists, on a larger scale, with mapping organizations. Everyone has their own idea of how a map should look, yet a one-country map is boring and useless. Every so often, someone from Shireroth says that if the MCS won't give us more land, we should go off and found a competing mapping organization, or someone from Babkha says that they need to found a map that's more "simulationist" or "serious". These may be valid complaints, but they are, once again, the voice of the devil. The reason the MCS is so popular and fun is that it's one map for everyone. The reason I get so enraged when someone tries to found a GSO is that it's ruining everyone's fun for selfish pursuit of one group's alternative "creative vision" (if "a crappy, low quality map on which my country has more land" can properly be called "a creative vision").

One of the things I like about Shireroth is that it's blundered into an optimal solution to this whole dilemma in the concept of subdivisions. Everyone gets their own one-person domain to do whatever they want in. There are five larger three-or-four person domains that represent a different balance between creativity and unity. And then there's the country as a whole, which is large enough to have awesome institutions like the PHPBank, the Wiki, and constant feudal plotting and civil wars. When I want to pursue a personal creative vision without asking anyone else, I go to Hyperborea; when I have a large scale plan that needs a dozen people, I go to Shirekeep.

But this only works if people don't abuse it. That's why for five years I (along with Gryphon the Pure) was the strongest supporter of the Feudal Holdings Act, the bill that said that every Duchy has to have at least four people or risk getting dissolved. The Shirerithian counterpart to "everyone wants to found their own micronation" is "everyone wants to be Duke of their own Duchy". But that prevents Duchies from serving their role as a middle ground between personal vision and multiperson complexity. The multiperson complexity goes out the window, and Duchies just become glorified counties. I and the other FHA partisans believed that you needed at least four people for Duchies to be the interesting vision-complexity midpoint that they were, and that if X duchies couldn't support four people each, then disband one and let X-1 duchies do the job.

I'm not saying it's never okay to go off on your own. There are some times when existing micronations and institutions just completely don't do it for you. I founded the nation of Hyperborea because at the time there were no other selective, insular, single-cit communities, and I thought it was important to have one. I merged Hyperborea into Shireroth because at some point I changed my mind, and decided that the importance of having that particular unique society was less important my obligation to the community to help create interesting and complex nations (inactivity also helped :) ). If you deeply and sincerely believe that there's something that really, really, really needs its own nation or Duchy, and that the need is so great that it trumps your obligation to help create large and functional nations, I'm not going to tell you you're wrong.

But my side of this debate will be that you should think about it really, really, really hard first.

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Harvey Steffke
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Re: [Debate] Scott and Harvey on "following your dreams"

Post by Harvey Steffke »

I want to start my reply with a question: if Erik had followed Scott’s views on joining the greater good, where would we be right now? I cannot say for certain, but I can almost guarantee we wouldn’t be having this debate at Shireroth.

If the question had been posed during the Apollo Era – “what country do you think will become the most dominant country in our sector in ten years?” – who would have chosen Shireroth, the crappy small Jasonia-clone? I sure wouldn’t have. Not even Erik would have, probably. What did Shireroth have going for it then? Next to nothing. Jasonia was a powerhouse for a while, as was Audentior, as was the GARP. Istvanistan, Treesia, Blackrock – all very solid nations with strong citizen bases, all looked like they could last forever, and they died one by one. Shireroth didn’t exactly outlast them all smugly, of course. It died a couple times itself. It merged with other countries several times. But it bounced back from very pitfall, the exact same problems that consumed almost every other micronation over a decade.

Why? Because Erik was of the mindset that, as long as you didn’t give up on a micronation, it couldn’t die. There was no force that could destroy it. He figured out this little secret first among us all. As long as he followed his dreams and visions for Shireroth and came back in its darkest hours to breath new life into it, it would survive. He didn't know others would come with him every time. Sometimes it was just him alone. But others did come. And here we are.

So easy it would have been to just merge Shireroth with the most convenient big power! So simple to focus his energies on that country instead! Such a small matter to throw away little, underdeveloped Shireroth when it was in its infancy! Everyone else was doing it, after all. Apollo nations sprung up and died almost weekly. It would have been nothing to start over with a new country. But that wasn’t Erik’s way. He was following his dream with Shireroth. And here we are, debating this topic in our sector’s most successful micronation by far.

Did Erik plan to make Shireroth a huge super-power? I doubt it. You can’t really plan something like that, no matter how hard you try. Oh, and we both know we tried. Does the Union of Apollo States sound familiar? How about Tymaria? THESE are the results of Scott’s “solution” to the ethical dilemmas, the situations where everyone agrees to work together. Much like communism on paper, these models completely forgot the fact that people are freaking complicated creatures. You can’t just stick the best and the brightest in a multi-layered system of power and responsibility and tell everyone to play nice. Huge political upheaval and scandals at the first possible opportunity. In the UAS, there were battles over pixels on the map and the name of the currency. In Tymaria, a plan by the military to spy and control a nearly-dead foreign power tore the country into so many factions as you can get confetti from tissue paper. So much for the greatness of many things and people coming together.

Shireroth, too, can suffer from simply having too many strong-willed people around. The main weakness of Shireroth is that it is Shireroth. Shireroth means certain things. If you wanted to change the national fruit away from the mango, or to propose a bill that guarantees all citizens certain rights, or any number of what people consider key Shirerithian features, you would be told in very solid, stern terms – no. No. You cannot do that here. Take your ideas elsewhere. The duchy system follows a similar detriment. There’s only so much you can do with a duchy. You can’t choose other foreign countries to ally with, because duchies do not control their own foreign policies. You cannot mint a different currency, because the Crown controls the source of money in the country. You can’t wage war against another power you don’t like or pass laws that violate the Imperial lawbook. In fact, changing too much of even the little stuff, like boundaries of counties and city names and the like will prompt old timers to come in and complain a lot, and that takes the fun out of pretending you had any real control. This is not even including the fact that, unless you’re the duke of a duchy, you have 0 influence on the laws you’re supposed to follow. For some people (I’d say most people) being given a small, meaningless forum and being told to do whatever you want there, provided you listen to your Baron, your Duke, and the Landsraad, and the Kaiser… for some people, that doesn’t appeal. Myself definitely included.

Sometimes, these little things are too much. Sometimes, one big thing is too much. The huge oversight in a duchy may not give people what they want. It’s not always a matter of following one’s dreams but just wanting more out of the hobby of micronationalism. What about people that don’t want to have to answer to a Kaiser? What about people that think the economy of Shireroth is stupid? What about people that want to have more control over what nations they support and what nations they oppose? It drives people to join other countries, or if there aren’t any that satisfy, start their own.

If it is the devil’s voice to want to try different things in micronationalism, then the hobby has seriously changed since I joined ten years ago. And not for the better. We may have been young and stupid way back then, but there was no denying our spirit and our energy, two things that somehow have been given negative labels these days.

Do I have a plan with this whole Goldshire duchy thing? Hell no. I never denied that fact. It just seemed like the right thing to do at the right time to do it. I will give it an earnest effort – I have some ideas about attempts to try to recruit new people and bring back old ones. I make absolutely no promises of success – you’d know I was lying if I claimed I could control, let alone predict, the future. But does this uncertainty stop me from trying something that sounds like a good idea? Never. Because if there’s one thing I’ve learned in micronations, and as an author, and in life in general, it’s that I don’t have all the answers at any given point, and a bad idea can become a much better idea if I give it a try and some time. You never know what you’ll think of, or what other people will do that you weren’t expecting, that can suddenly make it all click.

And likewise, you can make all the arguments you want that "there is no purpose for Nelaga to exist." That its doing things that have been done before. That it lacks unique citizens. That it lacks depth. And you'd be right on every single point except one: because I want Nelaga to exist. That's an argument you, or anyone else, can't touch. Any maybe I'll be the only one in any empty forum some day. That's okay. As long as I want it to exist, it will, even if its pointless.

Because sometimes, you just gotta roll with it. You have to admit that you’ve got no idea what’s going to happen, and that you might fail or get stuck, and that it’s okay. You can always join Shireroth or another big country if your own plans fall through. But don’t just forget your dreams because it’s hard, or because you’re not sure if anyone else will come with you, or because you don’t know what’s going to happen. If Erik had taken any one of the hundred opportunities that presented themselves to do that over the past ten years, then Shireroth would be a minor footnote in the long list of micronations, and we’d probably all be speaking Babkhan by now.
Last edited by Harvey Steffke on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Erik Mortis
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Re: [Debate] Scott and Harvey on "following your dreams"

Post by Erik Mortis »

*Feels honoured*

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Scott of Hyperborea
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Re: [Debate] Scott and Harvey on "following your dreams"

Post by Scott of Hyperborea »

I think your last post seriously misinterprets history.

The people who actually lived back in the Old Days didn't enjoy the spirit of everyone getting to rule their own nation with its own creative vision. Why else do you think we were so desperate to have mergers every few months? When Shireroth was founded, it barely took two weeks before it decided things would be better off with it merging into New Audentior. After New Audentior fell, Shireroth took less than a week to merge into Jasonia. After it gained independence from Jasonia, it quickly formed the Commonwealth of Benacia and then merged with the other Alexandros countries. And Alexandros itself only existed for a month or two before joining Tymaria.

The Golden Age of Jasonia that you remember so fondly was partly a testament to creative vision (yours) but much moreso a testament to everyone else who was willing to put aside their own plans to follow that creative vision. Jasonia at its peak had annexed Hyperborea, Antarctica, Shireroth, and Tapfer. How Golden do you think Jasonia would've been if me, Ryan, Erik, Bill, and our respective citizens hadn't been in it?

Likewise, Shireroth's success is not, I think, a testament to Erik's creative vision but to his recruiting skills and political acumen. For the first half of its life, Shireroth didn't have a creative vision. The two most easily recognizable symbols of Shireroth - mangoes and Malarbor - didn't exist until sometime around the reign of Raynor X, and all that Raynor I from the Khaz Modan fighting Rrakanychan stuff, the closest thing we have to a fictional history, is later still.

What happened with Shireroth was a combination of Erik's stubbornness, Erik's ability to navigate Tymarian politics to come out on top, and most of all Erik recruiting five or ten of his real life friends into the hobby. At some point (probably around the death of Menelmacar) Shireroth reached a level where it was obviously the only game in town for the survivors of the Apollo and Tymarian sectors, and so we all joined up. Not because it was brilliantly creative, but because it was big and stable.

You're a perfect example of this. You hate most things about Shireroth - the feudalism, the mindless conservativism, the various historical slights you think it's dealt you. But you're here anyway, and you're enjoying it in spite of yourself, because this is the only place you can do something like resurrect Goldshire. Nelaga just doesn't have enough people or complicated political structures for an epic plan like that to make sense.

I'm here for the same reason. I think Shireroth's fictional history is kind of dumb, and that the conservativism and lack of representation are preventing what could be some really interesting measures (like the vote-based economy). But this is the large stable country that's serving the post-Apollo/Benacian/Tymarian community, and I'm not going to risk splitting it up unless I think I can come up with a better one - and I don't think I can.

Shireroth's greatest asset may well be its reputation. Because it's built a reputation as a large stable nation that has many people and doesn't die, micronationalists who want a good experience will be drawn to Shireroth because they know it can provide lots of interesting simulation and community - which, in turn, makes its ability to provide simulation and community even better.

We all laud Erik's stubbornness in not giving up on Shireroth even when it seemed totally hopeless, but we only laud it because it worked. Compare the Kathryn and Mari debacle in Menelmacar. They did exactly what Erik did - refuse to give up on an obviously dead country - and yet their prolongation of its lifespan is universally reviled as the perfect historical example of how not to let a great micronation die.

Erik doesn't deserve praise for founding the original little Republic of Shireroth with its democratic government and silly slate gray forum. Anyone could have done that, and a thousand micronationalists did. Erik deserves praise first for subordinating Shireroth to larger countries when it served the end of the greater community (thus making things like the Golden Age of Jasonia possible) and eventually building Shireroth up until it became the larger country that everyone else decided to subordinate themselves to.

I would even dare say that, by his years as an Audente, Jasonian, Alexandrian, and Tymarian, and by recruiting his own micronationalists instead of poaching them from elsewhere, Erik earned the right to be the founder of the largest micronation in our general vicinity.

This is my response to your point: that if everyone believed as I do, Shireroth would not exist. I have yet to hear your response to my point: that if everyone believed as you do, no large interesting micronation would exist or could ever exist.

Erik Mortis
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Re: [Debate] Scott and Harvey on "following your dreams"

Post by Erik Mortis »

"I think Shireroth's fictional history is kind of dumb," .... could you explain that somewhere else for me?

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Scott of Hyperborea
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Re: [Debate] Scott and Harvey on "following your dreams"

Post by Scott of Hyperborea »

Erik: See here

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