Official Closing and Discussion

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

*nods*

[Kaiser Los III]

In case you haven't noticed, this war is now officially closed. Babkha & Friends won a marginal victory, taking Jaris but losing quite a number of ships and men in the process, not to mention having two of their cities near-destroyed. Congratulations to them.I am not too keen on another war in the near future (at least not until I lose the Kaisership in two months) but I do want to discuss what directions everyone thinks we should be going, what complaints people have, and any new rules that should be added.The complaints I have heard from the Shirerithian side are first of all that too much knowledge of complex military matters were required, and that there was too little emphasis on good writing. Greg has suggested that next war, the outcome be predetermined in advance, which might make sense.Do the Babkhans and Anticans feel the same way, differently, have other problems, or what?Oh, and I *will* rework the rules for carriers sometime soon.

[Zirandorthel]

Quote:The complaints I have heard from the Shirerithian side are first of all that too much knowledge of complex military matters were required, and that there was too little emphasis on good writing.Too right. I don't know if a bombing squadron can make four bombing runs every forty minutes, and to be honest, I don't care. That's not what recwarring is about, in my opinion.. Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages

[extreme007]

Quote:Too right. I don't know if a bombing squadron can make four bombing runs every forty minutes, and to be honest, I don't care. That's not what recwarring is about, in my opinion..seems to have something to do with me..... to be honest, i just picked random numbers... 4 hours for my bombing raid sounded good enough to me..... infact, i know i could have reduced it to just about half an hour.. (the israelis during the six day war were flying missions every fifteen minutes! but offcourse, they had way more pilots than 25.) Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,Advance Science,Advance Extremism,(in Karnali, Republic of)

[Osman Shahanshah]

The laugh is that the Shirerithians right through the war maintained a numerical parity with the GC & Allies and towards the end fielded planes that were significantly more advanced than anything hitherto encountered *glares at Fax* (even if their long-range weapons were shite).However that said the Shirerithians failed to commit these forces to any decisive battle that would have hindered Extreme's war. Indeed Extreme was only undertaking round the clock bombing missions because by the end he had nothing else to do, and in his defence his posts were both technically proficient in terms of military knowledge and excellent as posts telling a story - for example he skillfully took apart Ozarka's squadron in a series of set piece encounters to which the enemy could mount no coherent response even when presented with ample opportunity. Eoin, Greg and Foghorn's infantry were being punished for the failure of their air forces to intervene on their behalf. Unfortunate for them but c'est la guerre, they still managed to make some good posts in the midst of their misfortune.I would characterise the war as being typified by a failure to follow up initial advantage. Much of this derived from the inactivity of combatants at crucial moments, but it also derived in part from a lack of aggressive spirit.For example the Shirerithian marines attacked Acre where the Fedayeen Ardashir had been set up (in anticipation of Foghorn's often repeated desire to besiege Acre like a crusader) when the Palastina Defence Force failed to mobilise for the war the Fedayeen were the only force available to defend the entire territory of Palastina and were holed up in Acre. If the Shirerithians had landed to support the Antican Light Infantry in Miska to at Tyre to isolate the Fedayeen from the Army of Terre d'Riches the Babkhan position would have been untenable and the province along with 25,000 fedayeen would have had to have been abandoned. As it was the failure to press home an assault on Acre or reinforce the occupation of Miska allowed me sufficient time to move forces sufficient for a holding action into the theatre and to make full advantage of air supremacy and the regalvanisation of the fedayeen, after a temporary collapse owing to a spell of absence from Yuri, to force the Anticans from Miska and to organise an intense resistance inside Acre which the Shirerithians failed to concentrate their superior numbers and firepower upon.On the deficit side there were numerous Commonwealth blunders and delays which reduced the totality of victory. The air lift of an Alexandrian brigade onto Jaris did suffer significant casualties when the unescorted helicopters of the first wave came into the range of a nearby Antican battlecruiser.Also in Jaris the Grand Commonwealth Marine Corps under Amir Shervanis failed to follow up their initial advantage in capturing the outer Islands of Jaris and the main invasion was much delayed though ultimately spared significant resistance. In this time some of the support ships assisting the marine corps were lost with much loss of life.The Battle of the Karamaran Sea however was the most prominent of all. The Shirerithians benefited from a certain carelessness which brought a carrier group into close proximity with the entire enemy fleet. Unfortunately even the supremacy in naval aviation was negated as Dugobert's Sea-Ashavans were loaded with ordinance for air to air dogfighting against Ozarka rather than for strikes against capital ships. Fortunately the Akh-Horus and its escorting ships were obedient to the last order recieved from headquarters in York and fought on til overwhelmed, even engaging in martyrdom operations such as the frigate which exploded itself by detonating its magazines on purpose next to the enemy flagship which caused horrendous damage to the battlecruiser and another ship which had attempted to land a boarding party on the frigate. A few Ashavans crippled an enemy destroyer by kamikaze tactics once their missiles had proved useless. Indeed with regard to suicidal tactics used to extract the maximum advantage from a hopeless situation the battle of Karaman Isle has taught the armed forces and peoples of the Commonwealth, thanks to propaganda issued after news of the defeat became known, that surrender to an inferior nation or people is impossible and that in defeat with escape not an option only death in the effort to kill an enemy is a viable option. Brainwashing on this topic shall become wipespread amongst the Commonwealth military and the civilian population of Babkha as well and the cult of martyrdom shall become an ingrained part of the psyche of the Commonwealth warrior who will gladly sacrificed his life for the glory of the Unconquered Sun.Other useful facets of the Cult of Martyrdom is that it allows for a total disregard of the rights of civilians and enemy prisoners of war this freed us from the duty of care and allowed us the full range of options viz the use of civilians as auxiliaries and human shields and of prisoners, well most of those chanced upon we executed shortly after torturing them to demoralise the enemy in Acre with regular bombardments of human heads mingled in amongst the various forms of high explosive being lobbed around.In terms of the war overall I would say that it was a significant Commonwealth victory which while undoubtably resulting in heavy loss of life, both military and civilian, and a carrier group did nonetheless achieve its objective of occupying Jaris. Although the island will be eventually relinguished under the future peace settlement (required in the SNARL charter) to a demilitarised Shirerithian authority, the death squads are already doing a superb job in eliminating undersirable elements amongst the educated portion of the population of Jaris, something which will greatly assist in future wars should a reoccupation be required. Also looting is continuing in a satisfactory manner and should cancel out the cost in material damage in Acre and Miska which will itself be overcome in time by the use of slave labour. Thanks to a daring special forces mission the Grand Commonwealth has obtained access to Shirerithian technology and scientists in Babkha and Karnali are now looking to integrate that advanced knowledge into their future weapon systems. Tymaria City and its dockyards in Norfolk Isles have been heavily damaged by the 11th Tactical Air Force, which pushed the nearest enemy forward base back to the Raynor Isles. From this position thus earned with much blood and treasure the Grand Commonwealth considers itself to be able to expand in future aggressive wars against either Jaris and Cognito or towards the Shirerithian chain of outposts that stretch from the Norfolk Isles to Gong Li.

[Osman Shahanshah]

With regards to the awarding stars for writing of a certain quality, which in turn confers a certain advantage, I am all for that but wars should still be fought for the sake of victory.

[AngelGuardian93]

If that's how you feel than I will not be recwaring with you again, Ardy. I joined SNARL to be able to read good stories to pass the time. I think that should be the emphasis of SNARL rather than victory simply because SNARL doesn't count for anything other than bragging rights. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Kaiser Los III]

With regard to the Shirerithian inability to mobilize forces, you are quite right, but the failure was not at the level of the general staff so much as at the level of people being shaky in their attendence to the war. For example, although Fax and Erik could between themselves have taken out Extreme, and although there were plans to do so, both of them decided they didn't want to participate right after making their units (in particular, both were annoyed at certain things Extreme said to them, and in fact I detect a major anti-Extreme feeling on our side). The failure to take Acre as quickly as might have been desired came from Eoin being away for about half a week at a critical time.I felt there was definitely a clash between the desire to be as fair and try to make the war as fun as possible and the desire to win at all costs. Most of the battles that took place were those where someone caught the other side with their pants down - ie me attacking the aircraft carrier and extreme attacking cities from above the range of their air defenses. I'm not sure whether that's undesirable or not.A lot of people got really, really angry at Extreme, even though he undeniably kept within the spirit of the rules. I think it would have been less of an issue if we had had more or better air units; however, I know of at least three Shirerithians who have said they're not going to be in any future war with him unless there are some changes.I like Greg's idea to have the war mapped out beforehand, but if that is not a good option, then perhaps we should have some rules that try to help even things out between the haves and the have-nots in terms of military knowledge and prevent massive amounts of damage being done too easily. I'm not sure how realistic it is to have five planes able to destroy a whole city in a single bombing run, but it certainly irked a couple of people to have it happen again and again.I am uncertain that Ardashir can dictate peace terms ,seeing as how neither side risked anything at the beginning of the war, and thus a side choosing to "surrender" would result in them losing absolutely nothing.

[OctaviusMe]

I guess we'll never know what happened to Lt. Sharon Valeri and the 3 Naval Infantrymen lost on Jaris.In regard to technological... accuracy... I think I did the best I could trying to combine that with writing. I don't know how successful I was, but I think it was getting there. *shrugs* If it wasn't for those mines...

[AngelGuardian93]

Yeah, I think so. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Osman Shahanshah]

As far as I am concerned Extreme remained inside the spirit and rule of the charter. If you people want to beat him you are going to have to accept that in order to do so you are going to make a concerted effort to bring him to battle.Unless you start issuing stars for acts of chivalry there is no incentive not to attack an uprepared or defenceless enemy.

[AngelGuardian93]

No, the thing I dont like was that ceiling bombing technique. Not cool. Other than that I have no problem with him... There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[UEC]

For an example of setting the end of a recwar at the begining I point to the Mog rebellion. Having the ending detirmed allowed people to do whatever they wanted really.. and have fun. So numbers stopped mattering.. cause in the end.. 1000 troops or 10000 troups made no diference, so you could just have fun.And I was waiting for Orders from you Scott.. don't try to pin it on me.. I told you I was waiting for orders... E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Zirandorthel]

In that case, Erik, it's probably my fault, as I was given command over all units in the Acre sector.Ah well..I don't think having the ending determined from the beginning would be exactly fair...or much fun. I think troop strengths and things like that should matter, as should tactics. Perhaps there should be conditional victory...I know there was in this war, which incidentally I think gave this one a good bit more structure and impetus than a lot of recwars I've seen. But perhaps the conditional victory should be more objective-linked, involving points for targets achieved, etc?Actually, that could work. Each side would in future be given a list of major objectives, minor objectives, and bonus objectives. Major objectives would be, taking an example from the Jaris War, for the Commonwealth forces to take Jaris, and for the Shirerithian & Antican forces to take Terre d'Riches. Minor objectives would be for both sides to destroy enemy installations and/or smaller towns. Bonus objectives would be to definitively wipe out resistance. These objectives would be pursuable using both narrative and strategic methods. And anyway, it can all be worked out in a gentlemanly fashion.For instance, there was an agreement about the last fate of Acre. It was agreed that the Shirerithian forces would eventually take the city, with an agreed amount of losses. All that was left was that both sides remained active. Of course, it would probably have been best to figure Extreme into these negotiations aswell, but that's in the past.If worst comes to worst, I think summaries are a must. Not everyone wants to read about Don Diego Almagro's Treesian Red obsession, or Av Nirim's inner angst over his casualties. A nice synopsis at the end is always helpful...Summary: Read the post, ya lazy feckers. Some good points right there... Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages

[Kaiser Los III]

Erik, I gave you orders to you and Fax attack Extreme when you found an opening, and then a week or so later, when neither of you had done so, I was talking to Fax and I thought he said that both he and you were out of the war. If I misinterpreted him, mea culpa. Edited by: Kaiser Los III at: 9/8/05 12:43

[Fax Celestis]

Because of the reaction I received, I decided to step out entirely.Perhaps if, instead of a "WTF get the hell out n00b" reaction, I had received a "Um, that's not quite what we're doing here" reaction, I would have altered my choice and participated in the war.Instead, I was told that I was doing something wrong, so uproariously wrong that senior members of the other side were mad about it.So I stepped out.I'm with Greg on this, really: SNARL shouldn't be about technicals. It should be about a story.I wanted to create individual personalities for each of my pilots, deep enough that people reading it would cheer when they succeeded and feel saddened when they died.But instead I was fronted with "Oh, you can't do that, that breaks the laws of the Universe, which I have myself cast in steel for all to see."Fuck that.If the next war is like this, you all can do it without me. Blindness Is A Blessing

[Zirandorthel]

Yes, I think it should be fair enough that the lazier side who doesn't bother to concoct a plan to fulfill their objectives should be defeated, no matter what the general understanding is before the war occurs... Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages

[Osman Shahanshah]

Oh stop making excuses for yourself Fax. Extreme was every bit as good as the best of the other participants in terms of creating and expressing plot narrative and character, it is just that he had an edge in understanding the correct military application of tactics and technology. If you had bothered to read the thread on which that discussion you would have read that we reversed our initial hostility to your totally out of synch unit (anti-grav mach 3 etc) and were willing to fight it. Granted that was because we had figured out the strategy and tactics necessary to combat you but still. Anyway your being demoralised and indignant in quiting the field worked just as well from our perspective . In general Extreme's unit seemed to have built up an aura of invincibility because no one was willing to engage it. Erik's unit remained hidden at its undisclosed location, Fax never ventured into the combat area either. Indeed the only enemy air units to engage Extreme were the Natopians and Ozarka. The Natopians to their credit operated from a disadvantage and secured the only SPEAR 'kill' against the 11th Tactical Air Force in the entire war. Ozarka by contrast, when intercepted by the 11th TAF displayed hesitancy and confusion leading to an abdication of responsibility and leadership with the result that his formation was shot out of the skies by the 11th TAF. Ozarka's defeat and decision to abandon Jaris precipitated Shirerithian defeat in the most crucial theatre of the war - the defence of Jaris was relegated to a damaged Antican cruiser which was itself hamstrung by representations of the domestic break up of the Dinarchy. Other than that I endorse and echo Eoin's sentiments above. Pre-scripting will take the spontinaity and fun from the conflict. Remember nothing is certain in war. Edited by: Osman Shahanshah  at: 9/9/05 9:56

[Fax Celestis]

I'm not making excuses for myself.I will grant you that what I proposed for my units was a bit out of place. However, a different reaction would have kept me around.I propose that for the next war we do it in medieval fashion while we work out all these technological problems. Blindness Is A Blessing

[Zirandorthel]

I don't think there is any need for such a solution. Certainly I wouldn't mind medieval-style technology, but if it's just because we can't "work out" what is pretty similar technology to our own era, then it's not really an option..Might I point out that when Scott stated that his flagship had nuclear engines, no-one raised an eyebrow? This might have something to do with the fact that no ego-boosting gold stars had been handed out to anyone at that stage, but the point stands.. Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages

[Osman Shahanshah]

Well the Nimitz class aircraft carrier is powered by a reactor so perhaps that wasn't too much of a sudden leap from the norm. Edited by: Osman Shahanshah  at: 9/11/05 3:22

[Bill3000]

Do I need to point out that the technology level is not supposed to matter - it is the strength of the unit, which is solely determined by the number of gold stars it has? Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismPissing off Micras, one nation at a timeProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[Zirandorthel]

From the Charter:Quote:C. The variables that might decide battles beyond sheer manpower (shippower? planepower?) are terrain, backstory, and gold stars.Technology level does matter. You can't field 100 Panzer tanks against a walking mech with rail-cannons, can you? Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages

[OctaviusMe]

maybe the mechs are lightly armored and the rail-guns only partially armor penetrating.

[Osman Shahanshah]

Maybe just stick with the panzers then

[Zirandorthel]

Quote: maybe the mechs are lightly armored and the rail-guns only partially armor penetrating.I don't know if you're being serious or not, but I really don't see the point. There's a whole plethora of military vehicles from real world situations that can be used without having to resort to imaginary ones.. Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages

[Fax Celestis]

Alright, if there's no problem and I'm just being an airhead (which I probably am), then I vote we do the next war in medieval fashion because I feel like it. Blindness Is A Blessing

[Zirandorthel]

Were we saying something like that anyway, Ardashir? Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages

[Osman Shahanshah]

I think we should go out of our way to make the next war, if not exactly mediaeval then perhaps low tech - rifles and machettes etc - and with primitive tactics, mobbing, ambushing and so on.

[Zirandorthel]

Perhaps a place with lots of forests or jungles.. Wil Nider to the HyperboreansEoin to the restZirandorthel to the ages