Question about the Treaty

[vasroe]

Dear Friends,

Antica's Archon and Head-of-State, Octavius, has granted me permission to inquire about the possibility of Antica becoming a signatory to the Small Commonwealth Unified Currency Treaty. Currently, it does not appear that Antica will be interesting in joining the Small Commonwealth. Could perhaps a representative of the signatory nations discuss the possibility of Antica signing the Currency Treaty both with me and with Antica's Archon?

Best regards,

Mateu Vasroe

[Harvey Steffke]

I don't see how this makes any sense. It's not like joining the Small Commonwealth forces you to do anything you don't want to do. If you want to only join the currency treaty, than that's the only one you have to sign as a member, but you still have to be a member to sign it.

[Andreas the Wise]

Sorry ... are you saying that Antica isn't interested, and you'd like a SC rep to convince them to join; or that you'd like to ask some questions of a SC rep?

Either way, I'm probably the best person. Would you like to ask questions here?

[Maximilian]

It is legally not possible to join the SCUE and not sign the General Membership treaty.

Furthermore Batavia would disagree if such a procedure would be made legal.

Hence I think Antica should just join the Small Commonwealth if they want to join a treaty. There is no disadvantage in joining the Commonwealth. Antica would be really welcome.

[vasroe]

Yes, Andreas. That would be fine.

First of all, Antica would like to join the Small Commonwealth currency unit and banking system; however, it does not want to join the Small Commonwealth.

If the other nations do not mind, I can arrange for Antica's Archon to sign the Treaty at whatever is the best time.

[Malliki Tosha]

You seem to fail to grasp the general idea here. You can't sign the Small Commonwealth United Economy treaty without being a Small Commonwealth member. Period.

[Harvey Steffke]

I'm fine with questions; ask all the questions you like. But no non-members are signing treaties.

[vasroe]

You seem to fail to grasp the general idea here. You can't sign the Small Commonwealth United Economy treaty without being a Small Commonwealth member. Period.

If this is true, Antica would be interested in signing a new Treaty with the Small Commonwealth itself that would do the same. The currency and bank access stipulations would be written into that Treaty and would only apply to Antica vis-av-vis its diplomatic relations with the Small Commonwealth. However, on behalf of Antica, I would like to see what Andreas has to say about what has been discussed so far before we moving forward on that possible project.

[Malliki Tosha]

The SC can't sign treaties. It has no powers in the area of foreign policy.

[Andreas the Wise]

Well, I'm happy to answer any questions you have about the SCUE here; but I can assure you you won't be able to sign the SCUE treaty without signing the membership treaty for the Small Commonwealth itself. As Harvey noted, signing the general membership treaty does not entail anything of you - you are not obliged to sign any further treaties, you can but don't have to vote on new people signing the general membership treaty, you don't even have to agree with decisions taken by other small commonwealth members. The Small Commonwealth has deliberately been designed as a pick-and-mix system - you pick as many or as little first tier treaties to sign as you want; and if you've signed them, you can sign the applicable second tier treaties etc. You're under no obligation to sign any more treaties - but the general membership one is essential to sign.

Would your archon care to come here and share his concerns about membership in the Small Commonwealth?

EDIT: if people would stop posting before me and let me get a word in ...

[vasroe]

I have invited our Archon here to make a statement.

If we cannot sign a treaty with the Small Commonwealth, then that would make negotiations somewhat less easy, Andreas. Is there a simpler way you might recommend for Antica getting to be on the SC bank and use the SC currency that does not involve Antica joining the SC?

[Chrimigules]

Well, it would make it awfully difficult to play Shireroth's rival if we joined Shireroth's organization. Scott had asked me maybe a month or two ago if Antica could take its usual place as a friendly rival to Shireroth to make things more interesting.

At the same time, however, Antica can't just cut itself off completely from the Small Commonwealth nations. Either we would have to sign individual treaties and not be allowed to participate in the hub at Shireroth anyway, or we would sign a treaty with the Small Commonwealth.

[Malliki Tosha]

From the SCUE treaty:

1. Any nation who has signed the General Membership Treaty may sign this Small Commonwealth Unified Currency Treaty, provided they gain approval from existing signatories.

The SCUE treaty regulates the united economy, so joining it without having signed the general membership treaty (i.e. being an SC member) is impossible.

[Andreas the Wise]

Ah, that makes more sense. Well, Chrimigules, you do know that every SC nation will vehemently oppose the idea that the organisation is a Shirithian puppet? I think you could get away with signing the membership and SCUE treaty and then subsequently ignoring the organisation, without it looking like you succumbed to Shireroth's evil influence. Though the number of Anticans who have got dual citizenship recently ...


Vasroe, the way the SCUE is set up, individual Anticans can happily participate in the economy if they have citizenship in another SC nation - for example, how you presently have a bank account as a Shirithian. However, if you choose to participate this way, you'll have to resign yourself to the fact that you'll need to earn every single unit of currency you need (that or make some deal with a rich nation to give you a large amount of money, and if you're going for the whole "Shirithian opponent" angle, being heavily indebted to another nation doesn't work so great) - only new member nations get allocated starting funds from the Small Commonwealth, and then, only for those citizens not already registered with the SCUE elsewhere. (I assume you have read the Treaty)

EDIT: Again, ignoring intervening replies.

[vasroe]

Vasroe, the way the SCUE is set up, individual Anticans can happily participate in the economy if they have citizenship in another SC nation - for example, how you presently have a bank account as a Shirithian. However, if you choose to participate this way, you'll have to resign yourself to the fact that you'll need to earn every single unit of currency you need (that or make some deal with a rich nation to give you a large amount of money, and if you're going for the whole "Shirithian opponent" angle, being heavily indebted to another nation doesn't work so great) - only new member nations get allocated starting funds from the Small Commonwealth, and then, only for those citizens not already registered with the SCUE elsewhere. (I assume you have read the Treaty)

Yes, that would require some creative arrangements on our part.

Antica is currently evaluating its options. It likes the Small Commonwealth's economic system very much. Moreover, it also acknowledges that at this time membership in the Small Commonwealth is conferring great benefits to the member states in other areas. The downsides are, chiefly, possible loss of national identity and some of the problems associated with the old Grand Commonwealth (decay and bureaucratic largess).

[Malliki Tosha]

If Antica is allowed to join the SCUE without being a member of the SC, I will immediately introduce a bill in the Landsraad removing Shireroth from the SCUE.

[Andreas the Wise]

If Antica is allowed to join the SCUE without being a member of the SC, I will immediately introduce a bill in the Landsraad removing Shireroth from the SCUE.

Well, since nobody apart from Antica have been proposing that, and every SC member who has comment has opposed the idea, it shouldn't be a worry.

[Santelran Rottsaa]

The downsides are, chiefly, possible loss of national identity and some of the problems associated with the old Grand Commonwealth (decay and bureaucratic largess).

But how? The general SC treaty doesn't do anything but let you sign the other treaties and vote in the assembly.

[Jonas]

If Antica is allowed to join the SCUE without being a member of the SC, I will immediately introduce a bill in the Landsraad removing Shireroth from the SCUE.

This is not the place, nor the time for treats, Lord Tosha.

The downsides are, chiefly, possible loss of national identity and some of the problems associated with the old Grand Commonwealth (decay and bureaucratic largess).

You're thinking of the wrong organisation. This isn't a merger, nor does the SC control politics of the nations (except if nations join a separated treaty that does that, but that's there choice).

[Santelran Rottsaa]

If Antica is allowed to join the SCUE without being a member of the SC, I will immediately introduce a bill in the Landsraad removing Shireroth from the SCUE.

This is not the place, nor the time for treats, Lord Tosha.

Yeah, no desserts for you.

[Malliki Tosha]

I say what I want. I just wanted to make everyone aware of my position. :P

[Harvey Steffke]

Ahahaha, so awesome.

[vasroe]

But how? The general SC treaty doesn't do anything but let you sign the other treaties and vote in the assembly.

To an extent, you are correct. Joining the the SC at the most basic level, without signing any of the other related treaties, is basically just like being granted a titular government office--one with no real power; it's just a title, just a name. However there is an aspect of the SC now emerging that does make it different from some other important micro-national organizations: its exclusivity. For instance , the MCS and MITO do not require membership in some larger, more general organization in order to participate in them; however the SC Bank and the SC Rec-war organization do require membership in the Small Commonwealth.

[Harvey Steffke]

But how? The general SC treaty doesn't do anything but let you sign the other treaties and vote in the assembly.

To an extent, you are correct. Joining the the SC at the most basic level basically just like having been given a titular government office with no real power; it's just a title, just a name. However there is an aspect of the SC now emerging that does make it different from some other important micro-national organizations: its exclusivity. For instance , the MCS and MITO do not require membership in some larger, more general organization in order to participate in them; however the SC Bank and the SC Rec-war organization do require membership in the Small Commonwealth.

Are you sure about this? You seem to be undermined by your own argument.

To be on the MCS map, you have to agree to the MCS's charter. That's it. You don't owe them money or anything. Likewise, to be part of the Small Commonwealth unified exchange, you have to be part of the Small Commonwealth. Again, you don't have to do anything else if you don't want to other than sign up. There are other things to do at the MCS too, like their international sports leagues and history projects, and there are other things to do at the Small Commonwealth, but if you're not interested in either then you don't have to take part.

[Malliki Tosha]

Yeah, that's because the MCS and MITO are the larger organisations. I also think that the exclusivity is natural. We in the SC come up with various projects, like SCUE, why shouldn't we keep it exclusive for us? You want in, you join. Simple as that.

Oh, and vasroe, insulting the SC as an organisation and individual member nations isn't really going to lower your odds.

[Santelran Rottsaa]

Vasroe, to be honest, I have no idea what you're arguing at this point. I'm really not seeing your issue here. If you sign the General Membership treaty just for the economy, there's nothing wrong with that. Hell, that's even the point of the SC. You are bound to nothing beyond what you sign yourself up for. You are losing no identity. You are not walking into a trap of bureaucracy.

[vasroe]

We understand the details of why we cannot just join the SC currency group without joining the SC. While you have made it clear that the SC is harmless and even very beneficial, there might not be enough Anticans to support joining the SC at this time. The SC is a great organization, but joining it seems to run against psychological barriers held by some segments of the Antican populace.

[Santelran Rottsaa]

*sees now*

[Chrimigules]

You can't take us alive!

[Erik Mortis]

You could always join and try to turn the SC against Shireroth... Just an idea to help win over the anti-Shireroth people. (Why do they hate us btw?). What would get at the Shirerothians more then besting them in "their" own organization. (I wish people would get over that nonsense)

I feel inclined to do a pointless point by point of how the SC General Membership treaty binds you in no way..

Treaty of General Membership to the Small Commonwealth

It's a name. Nothing evil there.

1. There is a commonwealth, called the Small Commonwealth, which shall consist of all signatory members of this Treaty. All member nations may send one representative to the Commonwealth Assembly.

This makes the SC. Makes the assembly and gives each nation a vote. Shireroth is currently outnumbered 10-1 in the assembly. Antica would make it 11-1. Also, the assembly has no power outside adding new nations to the SC and passing meaningless resolutions. It can make decisions about the organization as a whole, but nothing binding really.

2. Nations wishing to join the commonwealth must be approved by the Commonwealth Assembling with at least a 1/3rd plurality. If rejected, a nation may reapply in 3 months.

4 nations would have to vote for you getting in. Shireroth would vote for you. I'm sure Gralus, Nelaga, Hurmu and Stormark (to name a few) would also vote for you. There. You are now in.
It's easy to get in.

3. The commonwealth's day to day operations are headed and overseen by a chairman known as the Primate which shall be a permanent position once appointed by the Commonwealth Assembly. The Primate oversees the Commonwealth Assembly.

Makes my job. I'm just a glorified moderator.

4. At any time the Commonwealth Assembly may hold a vote of no confidence and remove the current Primate. A simple majority (50%+1) is needed to remove a Primate and elect a new one. This vote is managed by the representative who proposed it.

6 nations don't like me. I'm fired. And if Antica proposed the vote, they would be in charge of it. Not me.

5. Nations may leave at any time, but must give public notice of their intent to leave this treaty for it to be recognized. Upon leaving this treaty the departing nation is removed from all other treaties dependent upon this one.

You want out? You're out. Just let us know. And it frees you of all other treaties. Simple. No strings.

6. This treaty may be amended by the Commonwealth Assembly with a 3/4th (75.0%) majority.

The treaty can be updated if really needed. It's not something that can be done on a whim either, so you'll know about it. Also, you can leave it you don't like it.