Shirerithian Heraldry

[Bacchus]

Erik's first thoughts on the subject, reposted:

I was with my gf in the library today. I had just finished my research for a paper, and was with her as she went through some anthro books... then I looked at the shelf and saw these huge books... so I started going through large ass books... then I found one... on heraldry... and read some of it.. and got an idea.
Shireroth needs its own system of Heraldry! Its own system for making Coats of Arms.
We've talked about it in the past, but we always worked with old european systems. We need our own.

As I see it we can have elements that signify.
*The owners rank (Kaiser, Duke, Baron, Count)
*major jobs. (minister, praetor, arbiter)
*Duchy (and maybe barony)
*Awards and knighthoods possessed (important)
*other significant things

These wouldn't be so much family markers, but personal ones. Related purely to Shireroth.
And... for added bonus...(ignore the double positive), this would make another business niche. Someone who would know the system and could make arms for people who can't or are to lazy to make their own. And since some jobs might change occasionally, everyone will need to update theirs now and again, making sure their is business.
So.. some examples I was thinking about.
Each duchy would likely have a 3 color scheme which would be used to distinguish that on a coat. Brookshire for example would likely have gold, dark blue and dark red. As on our flag. Yardistan say, red, green and blue. Elywnn: light blue, white and (???), Kildare... well... Each Duchy would have to decide.
We could have bars or whatever they are called to distinguish rank. diagnal from upper right to lower left = count. diagnal from left to right for baron. horizontal for duke and vertical for kaiser. And if you have multiple then you have multiple levels. I am a count and a baron. So that's two diagnal bands. And maybe for stewards, a half sized band of the specific type. Emissaries for Dukes would have their own symbolic component.
Also, we have emblems for various orders and awards, this would give us a place to display them.
We would need to set a size for the image (though shrinkable for avatars), and standardize various main components. Then subdivisions could add come components that might be specific to their cultures. And since we can tell what duchy you are in by the color scheme, we can prevent confusion is similar symbolism is used.
So, what do you think?
What should we use?

Basic principles cool? I like them, but for a few minor things.

I really like the Duchal colours thing, but I think having the same three colours as the constituent tinctures in every arms for each citizen in a Duchy could get a bit repetitive. I would instead advocate the use of Duchal colours in things like mantling and keep the shield herself free for creativity for the designer/bearer. Or, we could do Erik's thing. But I think if every shield in Brookshire or Kildare or wherever all had the same colours, I dunno, I just think that might not work.

Love the ordinaries for feudal rank- bend = count, two bendlets = baron, bar = duke, pale = Kaiser? And a duke and Kaiser (quite common) could have a cross. Then, to personalise, the shield could have some devices or fields or what have you. And if you want to have a lot of stuff, we could stick the feudal rank in the top right quarter perhaps.

The knighthoods thing is great, and as for the positions- how about each minister choose something appropriate- MOMA maybe a sword or big red button, the Shirefox symbol is quite nice for MiniInt etc.- Arbiter could have a gavel and Praetor could have a speaker's baton perhaps, I don't know, a whip maybe for keeping Dukes in check?

Anyway, aside from any other thoughts you might have, we need to collect some information:

From each Duchy:
-Three colours
-Animals/symbols
From each ministry/position:
-Potential symbol

[Allot]

MiniInfo: the weird cloaky guy in the corner of ShireWiki seems to be symbolic of us.

[Shyriath]

I really like the Duchal colours thing, but I think having the same three colours as the constituent tinctures in every arms for each citizen in a Duchy could get a bit repetitive. I would instead advocate the use of Duchal colours in things like mantling and keep the shield herself free for creativity for the designer/bearer. Or, we could do Erik's thing. But I think if every shield in Brookshire or Kildare or wherever all had the same colours, I dunno, I just think that might not work.

I think I agree with you there. Notwithstanding the amount of variety you could get just on variations of ordinaries and charges, trying to adhere to a particular color scheme on the shield itself would be a bit too restricting. I'd vote for the mantling, except for most purposes have only two colors (which mantling usually does).

Love the ordinaries for feudal rank- bend = count, two bendlets = baron, bar = duke, pale = Kaiser? And a duke and Kaiser (quite common) could have a cross. Then, to personalise, the shield could have some devices or fields or what have you. And if you want to have a lot of stuff, we could stick the feudal rank in the top right quarter perhaps.

I think I'm a bit iffy about using those particular ordinaries for feudal rank. It would have the potential to make things a bit difficult when someone's rank changed; I mean, if you grant an average citizen arms, and then they suddenly become a Duke, you'd have to drop something straight into the middle of zir arms. Maybe use different forms of chief for the different ranks instead? It would allow the main arms to keep the same design mostly unmangled, just squished a bit into the lower 2/3rds of the shield.

Alternatively, you could go with a more traditional approach, like crowns of rank. That would, at the very least, mesh nicely with the use of mantling colors for Duchy of residence; you would know that a Ducal crown with a Brookshire mantling hanging off it = "Duke of Brookshire". Or, maybe, incorporate rank into the mantling itself somehow? There have been historical examples of mantlings with three colors, I think, so you could do something like a mantling with both ducal colors on one side and a lining of one of the furs on the other, with the fur indicating rank.

As a personal request... please, for the love of the Gods, do not stick stuff into the corners of the shield. I HATE that look.

The knighthoods thing is great, and as for the positions- how about each minister choose something appropriate- MOMA maybe a sword or big red button, the Shirefox symbol is quite nice for MiniInt etc.- Arbiter could have a gavel and Praetor could have a speaker's baton perhaps, I don't know, a whip maybe for keeping Dukes in check?

This is stuff I don't think should go on the shield itself, either (or again, if it does, in chief. Or maybe impaled). One effect I've always liked, though, is having staffs of office (or similarly shaped objects) situated (and projecting out from behind the shield, and that would be good for the Ministers and other officers of the Imperial Government. It'd still allow you to incorporate gavels and swords and batons and such, without cluttering up the actual shield with them.

For the knighthoods and the awards, one could design appropriately heraldic-looking chains and badges and medals to hang from the shield.

I was also thinking we could do some ecclesiastical heraldry here, too for those of us who are priests. Cedrism has something of a hierarchy, so instead of any helmets above the shields we could have a variety of amusing hats of ecclesiastical rank, maybe incorporating a symbol of the deity of choice; and of course there could be something equivalent for priests of non-Cedrist religions.

[Kaiseress Anandja I]

I think I agree with you there. Notwithstanding the amount of variety you could get just on variations of ordinaries and charges, trying to adhere to a particular color scheme on the shield itself would be a bit too restricting. I'd vote for the mantling, except for most purposes have only two colors (which mantling usually does).

I agree with you, Shy. Mantling would look nice.

Alternatively, you could go with a more traditional approach, like crowns of rank. That would, at the very least, mesh nicely with the use of mantling colors for Duchy of residence; you would know that a Ducal crown with a Brookshire mantling hanging off it = "Duke of Brookshire".

Me like this. This frees up space on the charge itself, thereby allow for a greater amount of cultural differences to show up. If we stick everything on the charge, there will be no space left for personal or culture specific things.

One effect I've always liked, though, is having staffs of office (or similarly shaped objects) situated (and projecting out from behind the shield, and that would be good for the Ministers and other officers of the Imperial Government.

Me like this too.

For the knighthoods and the awards, one could design appropriately heraldic-looking chains and badges and medals to hang from the shield.

I was also thinking we could do some ecclesiastical heraldry here, too for those of us who are priests. Cedrism has something of a hierarchy, so instead of any helmets above the shields we could have a variety of amusing hats of ecclesiastical rank, maybe incorporating a symbol of the deity of choice; and of course there could be something equivalent for priests of non-Cedrist religions.

[Bacchus]

I think I agree with you there. Notwithstanding the amount of variety you could get just on variations of ordinaries and charges, trying to adhere to a particular color scheme on the shield itself would be a bit too restricting. I'd vote for the mantling, except for most purposes have only two colors (which mantling usually does).

Two colours works even better, because it would allow some variety of the mantling even within each Duchy. And variety is the name of the game.

I think I'm a bit iffy about using those particular ordinaries for feudal rank. It would have the potential to make things a bit difficult when someone's rank changed; I mean, if you grant an average citizen arms, and then they suddenly become a Duke, you'd have to drop something straight into the middle of zir arms. Maybe use different forms of chief for the different ranks instead? It would allow the main arms to keep the same design mostly unmangled, just squished a bit into the lower 2/3rds of the shield.

Alternatively, you could go with a more traditional approach, like crowns of rank. That would, at the very least, mesh nicely with the use of mantling colors for Duchy of residence; you would know that a Ducal crown with a Brookshire mantling hanging off it = "Duke of Brookshire". Or, maybe, incorporate rank into the mantling itself somehow? There have been historical examples of mantlings with three colors, I think, so you could do something like a mantling with both ducal colors on one side and a lining of one of the furs on the other, with the fur indicating rank.

Crowns, that's a better idea. Easy to understand, mainly... and aesthetically pleasing by most standards.

As a personal request... please, for the love of the Gods, do not stick stuff into the corners of the shield. I HATE that look.

Boo.

This is stuff I don't think should go on the shield itself, either (or again, if it does, in chief. Or maybe impaled). One effect I've always liked, though, is having staffs of office (or similarly shaped objects) situated (and projecting out from behind the shield, and that would be good for the Ministers and other officers of the Imperial Government. It'd still allow you to incorporate gavels and swords and batons and such, without cluttering up the actual shield with them.

I like the idea of job symbols being in chief actually now you mention it. But behind it also would work, and looks quite impressive.

For the knighthoods and the awards, one could design appropriately heraldic-looking chains and badges and medals to hang from the shield.

Yep yep yep.

I was also thinking we could do some ecclesiastical heraldry here, too for those of us who are priests. Cedrism has something of a hierarchy, so instead of any helmets above the shields we could have a variety of amusing hats of ecclesiastical rank, maybe incorporating a symbol of the deity of choice; and of course there could be something equivalent for priests of non-Cedrist religions.

As the High Priest of Bacchus I can happily say F-A-B to this proposal.