Christ is with Shireroth

[hypatias mom]

I find it sad, also, when Christians, who should know better, condemn people of whose actions or life-style they disapprove, rather than trying to reason with them about their actions and trying to convince them that there is another, better way. The use of the word "hate" when applied to these people is not appropriate. There are many things of which I disapprove, but the people who do these things are not to be judged by me--that is the Lord's job. And remember the old adage, not a Christian verse, but still valid--"You can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar." Make your words attractive, and it is more likely that you will be heard, even by those who don't want to hear contrary ideas or teachings.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

In its central most principles I whole heartedly believe Christianity is a great way for you to lead your life. If you follow... most of the 10 commandments and the greatest commandments laid down by Jesus ('Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' and 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'), even if there is no such thing as god or religion in truth, your life and the lives of those around you will surely be better for it.

However there are certain elements of Christianity I can't really accept at all. Personally I think these people take every word God says so very to heart so much so that it's not good for them. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that homosexual acts are "gravely depraved" and contrary to the natural order. Obviously you can't make babies that way. But what is the basis for this argument? 'God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it."' Genesis 1:28. Personally for me that doesn't quite work. When you get into the heart of the old law stuff - pages and pages of Leviticus (I think?) about men sleeping with animals and and women being stoned and that - it is made clear and concrete, but Jesus did sort of change the old laws (for example on ritual cleanness) from that section of the Bible, so it's less concrete.

But the concept of modelling one's life after Jesus, I like that. He was a very smart man and went through a lot of pain for everyone else. I mean, you can refuse to believe he was god or that god exists, but even then that's pretty impressive.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Completely Benkern. Just from a secular-philosophical view point, the man had a message. Even if you only look at him as a 1st century Gandhi (excuse the clinical irreverence but I want to prove my point), He was an excellent Humanitarian. My biggest contention is that often times the man overshadows what he said. And when you put the man before the message, it leaves the entire point free to be manipulated by anyone. GWB claims to be a Christian, How would Jesus look at his actions? or Pat Robertson? Or any number of Christian leaders in the US or around the world. Being a Christian isn't just supposed to be about following Jesus, it's equally important to remember that being a Christian means following the word of Jesus.

So my point is that fine, the world may not be saved by converting, but surely there is a place for "noble heathens", unbaptized babies who passed on, and righteous individuals who lived before the advent of Christ. Living a good life is the hard part, the part that takes eternal vigilance no matter who you are and what you believe. Simply saying "I am a Christian" does not make you a good person.

[Jacobus Loki]

Simply saying "I am a Christian" does not make you a good person.

Beware of the used car salesman wearing cross or fish-pin!


There are hundreds of different varieties of Christian, many of which leap at each others throats regularly. This is human nature. Most Christians can fall back on the fact that they are loved by GOD, and that can salvage many a bad day.

I used to bait "Christians" as a sort of sport. Then I mellowed. Then I married one. Thank all that is Holy, righteous and good, she is not of the judgmental persuasion, and in her Christianity there is room for me, and even Jacobus.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

That, my friend, would take a great deal of faith..

[hypatias mom]

My mother was talking with a Christian neighbor who spoke of a difficult person on our block. My mother said, "And she calls herself a Christian." Our neighbor replied, "Just imagine how she'd be if she weren't." It is a reminder to all of us who consider we "live good lives, etc.," that we are all a work in progress, and (hopefully) growing in our walk. An honest person will acknowledge that he or she is far from perfect, and is workng to grow and improve. Those who think they have "arrived" at some level of godliness are only fooling themselves or trying to fool those around them.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Well said.

[Malliki]

I just get a noxious feeling when I talk to or listen to people that hold "the truth". Somehow my beliefs (I am an Atheist) are not really worth anything or even worth discussing since I am automatically wrong. Making fun of other religions though, now that's fun. Freedom of expression allows anyone to propagate their religious beliefs, but it also allows the rest of us to make fun of them.

I had a conversation a couple of days ago with a Muslim on MSN. She told me that I was in big trouble because I wasn't a Muslim. I wondered why of course, you always get a bit curious when religious people start talking. The reason was, I was told, that god didn't like people not believing in him. So I said I didn't and I was quite happy about that. She said it doesn't matter since god exists anyway. I informed her that I tend not to believe in things for which there is no proof whatsoever. She said that there is a lot of proof. I became curious again and asked what proof she had. She said that since the Quran is true it should be considered evidence for the existence of god. I wondered how she knew that it's true. She said because it is.

A good rule: If your whole system of belief (or science, math or whatever) is based on the doctrine of "because I say so", don't be surprised if people tend not to believe you.

When I ask religious people for proof I also quite often get the answer "well there's no evidence that god doesn't exist". Now that is just plain silly. Using that argument one could say just about anything. I just go for this one: I believe that there is a tea pot rotating around Pluto. It is true since no one can prove that it isn't.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

A good rule: If your whole system of belief (or science, math or whatever) is based on the doctrine of "because I say so", don't be surprised if people tend not to believe you.

When I ask religious people for proof I also quite often get the answer "well there's no evidence that god doesn't exist". Now that is just plain silly. Using that argument one could say just about anything. I just go for this one: I believe that there is a tea pot rotating around Pluto. It is true since no one can prove that it isn't.

Nothing wrong with that argument... as you say, just don't expect other people to believe you. It's about faith.

I think any religion which believes in proselytism is flawed for this reason. In this age of modern thought (*shudders while he types that*) people need proof. Innocent until proven guilty. It's a good way of doing things, too. Just doesn't work if you've got the truth. It caters to those who believe there is no truth, because all of the major religions are deniable.

It is my opinion that if you want to follow your religion's principles about spreading the word and making people to think like you do - at least for a good decade or so - have children.

However, as a humanist I also think that god's existence is irrelevant. You can follow god's law and be a morally good person and draw strength from that. You can pull yourself through hard times because you believe in your heart Jesus is with you and carrying you. In the end, if god exists, sweet, you were lucky enough to pick the right choice; if not, you yourself made yourself stronger like god can, you forgave yourself like god can, you loved yourself like god can. Congratulations are thus in order.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

I said it before:

If God Exists, I am only a figment of his imagination. If God does not exist, he is only a figment of mine.

[Chrimigules]

Christ...

[hypatias mom]

This particular perspective--God is a figment of my imagination, or I am a figment of His--is one with which I find little common ground. God either exists or He doesn't. Man either exists or he doesn't. Imaginary people would serve no purpose; an imaginary god wouldn't either. Many people believe God exists; people also believe in their own existence. If God were imaginary, people would be believing in a phantom, a hoax, a delusion. If people were convinced they were imaginary, they would be insane. This particular argument reminds me of the ones we had in philosophy class--how to prove the existence of anything. Ultimately, there is no man-devised solution if one is unwilling to posit empirical existence of some sort.

People of faith do not get wrapped up in this insoluble puzzle. They have concluded that there is a god, that they themselves are real, and that this matters in some way. Different faiths see this from different perspectives. As a Christian, I see things from that perspective, but everyone is free to hold whatever belief or unbelief system seems right to him or her.

[Andreas the Wise]

Read Descartes, if you're worried about your own existence.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

"Cogito ergo sum" ("I think therefore I am") if you can't be a*sed to check.

Also:

After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together
of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of
matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed,
that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to
refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered,
striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he
rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."
James Boswell: Life of Samuel Johnson book 3.

Edit: And of course Berkeley was well on his way towards developing a line of thought (to be is to be perceived) that would in later centuries lead to Schrödinger's Cat which of course leads us to...



And I rejoiced for I began with René Descartes and ended with a LOL Cat. Which in my opinion sums up recent trends in Western Civilisation pretty nicely.



The end.

[Jacobus Loki]

Mike, bring your Muslim friend to Shireroth. I don't think we have any at the moment. The multiplicities would be good for her, and we could use the infusion.

As a Shirithian, I find peace in the BOO/\/\/\/\ist Theory that the Universe was created in a gigantic explosion that continues to explode, yea, unto this vey day.

[Malliki]

Not a friend, just someone I talked to.

[Jacobus Loki]

Acquaintance? Heck we could make a mosque thread.........

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Please don't - I would forever be eating bacon sandwiches in it.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

How is that new London Super-Mosque coming along?

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Dunno but my molotov fund is doing nicely.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

And that is why you never give a civil servant cause for revenge.

[Jacobus Loki]

Mmmmm, baconnnnnn...

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Bacon is so good. If there was one thing I would suspect to be some kind of forbidden fruit, it would be that. Boiled... fried... grilled... any way will do. *drools*

[hypatias mom]

That is one thing I've never understood--boiled bacon. When we were in England we were served boiled bacon and broiled tomatoes at every bed and breakfast hotel in England and in Scotland. This was a new experience to one who had grown up believing that bacon was fried and tomatoes were served cold in salads or made into salsa or tomato sauce.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Americans and English debating cuisine...

[Aurangzeb Khan]

bacon is bacon, it is a lump of pork that is cured - that lump can then be sliced up into thin rashers and fried or grilled or it can be immersed in salty water and boiled. Such is the infinite variety of English cuisine.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Ah but you lack the virtue of peameal back bacon.. there is no comparison.