I'd like to start a religion

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Yvain Wintersong
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I'd like to start a religion

Post by Yvain Wintersong »

- but I don't want to do it unless other people are also interested. Please read the sales pitch and tell me if can participate. I'll develop the idea further if enough other people will help.
Most people believe they are rational, and that their opinions are right. Yet people disagree about almost everything - big societal things like religion, politics, and morality; and little personal things, like whether or not your friend's girlfriend is a crazy bitch. These disagreements lead to wars, hostility, anger, and heartbreak - all the while with both sides complaining that the other can't see what's obviously true.

THE ORDER believes that rationality isn't a choice, but an achievement. Preferring gymnastic ability to not having gymnastic ability doesn't make you a gymnast, and preferring rationality to irrationality doesn't make you rational. Gymnasts need to train hard to turn a naturally uncoordinated body into a well-coordinated one, and thinkers need to train hard to change a naturally irrational brain into a rational one. Schools, universities, and debate clubs begin this training, but only enough to create people who feel rational but have a thousand invisible biases and prejudices that muddle their thinking and social interaction. The purpose of the Order is to take this training to a higher level, one that straddles the boundaries between the intellectual and the mystical. A place like Shireroth, full of people who are both very smart and unusually tolerant of weird things, is a good place to begin our work.

Some would say that an attempt to use esoteric means to perfect rationality is ironic or contradictory. They may be right, but the Order thinks it will at least be interesting.

The Order draws its inspiration from several sources. The Buddhists, the Dûnyain, the writers at Overcoming Bias, the magi, Scientologists, , medieval scholastic monks, and various scientists and philosophers have all shared portions of our goal, but some have gotten mired in superstition, greed, insanity, and other problems, and others are inspirational but need their work to be taken further. We aim to combine the best of these into something new and powerful.

The Order believes that the flaws in humanity can be fixed, though not without great effort. It believes that unless we take the first baby steps towards fixing those flaws ourself, we'll never even begin the process. And its members are dedicated to helping themselves each other take those steps nd whatever might come after them.
The basic plan is a discussion group. There's not going to be a lot of preaching by me because I doubt I'm much closer to this ideal than anyone else here. What I do have is a lot of interest in the problem and knowledge of various previous attempts to solve it. So I (and anyone else who's interested) will propose some articles (usually web pages) for discussion once or twice a week. We'll all discuss them using special rules intended to augment the discussion process. Occasionally, there will be certain tasks related to the discussion topics. Nothing along the lines of "assassinate the prime minister". More likely to be something like "Count how many times you lie in one week" or "Try to go a whole day without using the pronoun 'I'". If you don't want to do them, you don't have to.

The Order is of course open to everyone of any religious, political, or philosophical beliefs. Just realize that I'll probably try to undermine them and you're encouraged to undermine mine in turn. We especially need some really smart people to keep the discussions interesting and to find new material.

Participating in the Order would involve:
- reading topics relating to rationality, and discussing them if you find them worth discussion.
- looking at tasks set, and trying them if you find them interesting.
- having your beliefs challenged, and challenging those of others if you think you're up to it.
- not eating pork (For some reason, lots of really successful religions have bans on pork. Why mess with what works?) [EDIT: Cancelled by popular request]

You don't need to undergo any initiation ceremony or put your name on a scary list written in big calligraphy. I just want to know if people would join in the discussion.
Last edited by Yvain Wintersong on Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:52 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by benkern »

I like bacon... that's a main reason why I prefer Christianity to Judaism. ;)
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Yvain Wintersong »

Help me out with this, o H4773D one, and I'll waive the rule about pork :)

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by hypatias mom »

I believe your pursuit of rationality is a laudable one. However, I believe this is not an achievable goal. Throughout human history men have attempted to live and think in a totally rational manner, but have always fallen short because they have left out what I feel is the most important part of rational thinking: appealing to a higher power (a PC term for God in a politically correct time). I feel that without help from God, man is doomed to his own failings, no matter how well-intentioned he may be..

I do wish you well in your pursuit, and will read your arguments and exercises with interest, and may contribute as well.

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Yvain Wintersong »

O Mother of Hypatia, as someone who holds a belief I haven't considered as much as maybe I should, and does so in an interesting and intelligent way, you are exactly the sort of person I'm looking for for the Order. I hope that when The Order gets set up you'll present your reasons for thinking so and discuss the issue with the other participants.

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by hypatias mom »

I would be honored to have my opinions considered. You need to remember, however, that my opinions will be informed by an evangelical Christian perspective, but not, I hope, without being able to hear and consider opinions that differ from my own.

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Kaiser Mors V »

Scientology? You lost me there.... Those folk scare me at times.. especially since they want me dead...

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Yvain Wintersong »

Scientology interests me because of their very strong grasp of psychology and human motivation. Of course, they have turned that knowledge to evil - instead of using it to help people, they use it to draw them into a scam and keep them there - but the methods they use are applicable to non-scam organizations.

I wasn't aware they wanted you dead - may I ask why? In my opinion, any group that threatens the life of Your Imperial Niftiness needs to be wiped out without mercy by Shirerothian forces.

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Chrimigules »

Scientology is evil. And it's not even the fun, Babkhan kind of evil. It's the boring, legalese version of evil. If anything, you should open a temple dedicated to Xenu.
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Prodigy Almighty »

Just a point to think on:

The man who created Scientology wrote a book a few years earlier. It entailed ways to make lots of money very easily.

One of those ways is to make a religion.

Just think on it. :D
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Ari Rahikkala »

This post is actually a reply to a post on Scott's LJ, but it ballooned over the comment size limit... so, because this thread is quite topical for it, here it goes instead:
Alright, Scott, I hope you've learned how to spell Eliezer Yudkowsky, because I'm going to refer to a lot of his work here.

Firstly, you should remember that the subject of keeping your fantastic beliefs apart from ones grounded in reality has personal significance to me. I don't know if you've read the Twelve Virtues of Rationality, nor what you thought when you first read it. When I read it, I was thinking "How am I ever going to manage even half of this?". I don't know if you think rationality is easy, but I hope you don't - because then you'd agree with me.

No, here's what rationality seems like to me. We are a young animal species with a brain slightly larger than that of a chimpanzee, adapted for living in small tribes and doing social intrigue, hunting and gathering on some savannah or forest or whatever environment we evolved in anyway. We are only dimly aware of our environment, not naturally interested in rationality, and we keep constantly falling into all sorts of cognitive traps that a better mind would evade with grace. Just read Overcoming Bias, they have an impressive collection of ways that our thinking goes wrong.

For instance, we might be biased to actually passively accept everything we read, only actively rejecting things considered to be false later on. I am inclined to believe this due to personal experience. We are almost unable to untangle the mathematically obvious (relations of) probabilities of conjunctions from our sense of what's representative. Oh, and as a note that's kind of interestingly related to this issue, we're likely to believe that events that occur together in works of fiction are likely to really occur together.

Rationality is a struggle. One that's older than history. Probably older than mankind itself - the first creature that was able to imagine a wish and believe it to be true, yet reject the wish, was the first creature that had to be rational. I've never asked anyone how difficult they find the struggle, but I wish there are other people than me who find it as difficult. I'll go out on a limb here and say that they're probably more likely to be honest than the ones who say rationality is easy.

Note that when I say it's not easy for me, I don't mean that I'm like a Vulcan constantly tortured by having to repress irrational beliefs... however, it *is* enough of a problem that I'm quite jealous of people who don't feel the need to make it a problem for themselves. In my case, it's not just the obvious problem (the fact that I'm not smart enough to refute all of the extremely convincing arguments for all sorts of mutually contradictory ideas). No, for my case, consider for instance the times I'm alone and my thoughts stray to... the wrong kind of questions (check what the link is about before you continue). It happens maybe a few times a month, and it's quite uncomfortable. It makes me feel ill, and panicked, like I want to run away. It's not intense, it does not happen often, but if I could wave a magic wand and cast all of it away with without changing anything else in my mind, I would do it.

You know, in the army I visited a Bible study club a few times... it was partly out of curiousity, but mostly because I wanted to be with the kind of people who would go to a Bible study club - people who have belief in having a purpose and staying alive (in their afterlife). I thought I could learn something about feeling safe in your beliefs from them. Nothing good came out of that enterprise, though (*). For what it's worth, there's also an old thread on http://forums.gentoo.org created by me when I was feeling particularly depressed where I basically said that "I want to believe in a religion", for these same reasons... I'm not looking it up for now, though, since the thread itself is best left to history.


Considering all of this... are you really so sure you want to entertain fictional ideas and wish they were true? Are you sure you'll be able to keep doing it for decades without letting those ideas contaminate your actual beliefs? Are you sure you will never give in to the temptation of holding on a comforting belief too long, never accept an idea just because you find it too interesting to be false, never even when you're old and decrepit and your brain is slowly turning into mush, confuse your counterfactual beliefs with reality?

If you think you're strong enough then go ahead and do it. Entertain the thought that Stonehenge was a portal to somewhere meaningful, maybe pretend to accept it for a few days and throw it away. Allow yourself to believe that life and existence has a purpose. Just do what you like. As for me... I don't want to subject myself to that danger. I *want* to be rational. I want to remember that plausible fiction is fiction, that a beautiful theory not supported by evidence is false, that even my innermost thoughts arise from a system not designed for rationality (while remembering that there are whole batteries of tests and arguments I can subject those thought to, and countless people with their own experiences and knowledge that are willing to debate my ideas if I only present them for evaluation). I want to feel safe in my beliefs. I choose the boring existence where stories are just stories, thank you.



(*) The Bible study club's meetings started with a round of introductions involving everybody's religious beliefs, and I was honest in them. The other participants *were* quite surprised. I participated in the Bible readings but not in the discussions on what the passages meant, as there never was an occasion when I felt I had anything of value to say. In the end they ended up arguing against me and my atheism anyway, so I left them because I really wasn't there for that.
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Braden Indianensis »

I don't know...most any deity seen through the lens of theology relies very much on man for his existence, a notion deeply understood by the Greeks. I don't mean to say that God is an invention of man; the deists' God--the ultimately-reasonable intrinsic "Force" which is both imminent in and transcendant of the Universe, and governs its functioning at a high level--seems quite the best candidate, in my view. Who knows? After all, my fellow deists do not believe that God intervenes much (or at all) in human affairs, and may not even be aware of the existence of humans, so perhaps the deities we know--Allah, Jesus, Zeus and the Greek Pantheon, Amun-Rah--were beings or a single being created knowingly or unkowingly by God in order to make life easier for humans?
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Chrimigules »

If any sort of conscious divine force set out the laws of physics, then dammit, they're probably not going to violate them after consistently following it for several billion years (unless there's a Rule Number Infinity-1. I can do anything I want.), but rather, respect those laws. They made them for a reason. If you're going to set out the laws of inertia and gravity and such, then stopping the Earth so that the battle can last a few hours longer will obviously do more damage than the benefits it provides.

In terms of the nature of things divine, my current opinion isn't necessarily founded upon, but it does get fleshed out a bit by the concept in quantum physics that conscious observation leads to wavefunction collapse. I'm no expert, but here's how I figure it. If you're a noncorporeal, conscious entity with sufficient intellect and control, this is a great loophole, because you could probably, through wavefunction collapse, tilt the probability of events toward your goals without violating the laws of physics (whether you set them out yourself or you didn't and can't violate them). Considering that we don't see big, bearded men in the sky changing things more... obviously, this probably works out better. And of course, there's always the possibility of manipulation in the psychic level, through dreams and post-hypnotic suggestion. All around, it provides ample opportunity to manipulate events without taking a massively obvious role. But again, no big men in the clouds. Hell, just because it could happen this way doesn't mean it does.

And I doubt we'll be seeing any United Brotherhood of Wavefunction Collapse chapels opening any time soon.
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Ari Rahikkala »

Chrimigules wrote:If you're a noncorporeal, conscious entity with sufficient intellect and control, this is a great loophole, because you could probably, through wavefunction collapse, tilt the probability of events toward your goals without violating the laws of physics (whether you set them out yourself or you didn't and can't violate them).
No, you can't. A sufficiently advanced corporeal smartarse will eventually start making physical measurements everywhere, and the more things you change, the more evidence said smartarse will have that somebody's tilting probabilities. Sorry. A closed system is a closed system. Eventually they're going to hit a level of statistical significance that's equivalent to seeing a big guy up in the clouds with a stash of lightning bolts.
And of course, there's always the possibility of manipulation in the psychic level, through dreams and post-hypnotic suggestion.
Not possible without affecting physical systems in the first place.
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

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Yvain Wintersong wrote:Scientology interests me because of their very strong grasp of psychology and human motivation. Of course, they have turned that knowledge to evil - instead of using it to help people, they use it to draw them into a scam and keep them there - but the methods they use are applicable to non-scam organizations.

I wasn't aware they wanted you dead - may I ask why? In my opinion, any group that threatens the life of Your Imperial Niftiness needs to be wiped out without mercy by Shirerothian forces.
I'm.. a Psychologist.. (Psych major actually.. but... same thing kinda)... They aren't psychology... They think all psychologists are "evil", criminals... torturers.. conspirators..etc..etc.. in their film "Psychiatry: an industry of death" they have psychologists being mowed down by machine guns.. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientolog ... psychiatry).. But they are VIOLENTLY... opposed to psychiatry, psychology and psych people...

They are pseudo-psychology.. if even that.. Scientologists are down right scary to me... I didn't even pay them any heed till recently.. when I helped one at work.. she didn't know I was a psych person... it was.. interesting.. cause I played innocent lil fish monger... and didn't let on that she belonged to an organization that sought my destruction...

Further... the few "valid points" they have concerning "psychiatry" attack practices that mainstream psychiatry looks on as inhumane and barbaric... Or are part of only a single or small subset of the field... usually the behaviorist branch.. (which I admit connections to.. but not the part they attack) The attack ANY use of psychiatric medication... something I myself make use of... and... yeah.. this could go on for a while.. but I just wrote one essay.. don't feel like writing another...



I basically came to the conclusion that... Scientology attacks Psychiatry for the very reason Sheldon had to remove them from the First Foundation (See Issac Azimov's Foundation Trilogy) .. we would have the power to figure out what was going on.. and change it... We have the knowledge to realize that scientology is BS, and that IT sought to control people.. and to do something about it, thus ... scientology must eradicate psychiatry. And further, what better way to unite people.. then to give them an enemy to fight... So in that regard.. Scientology has a firm grasp of social psychology.. but it has created a form of false individual psychology.. even dangerous...

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Kaiser Mors V »

On a side note... despite all the silly gods... your order is not to far from the core beliefs of Cedrism.. transcending beyond the common condition, becoming more then you are. I just never really bothered to explain those concepts, cause no one really cared...

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Scott of Hyperborea »

I see I can't stay away from here, even when I'm trying. I blame the evil dolphin, as usual. Yvain, your religion looks very interesting, and very much like how I imagined the Hyperborean priesthood of Truth. I will try to participate once you have it running. But more to the point...

Ari, your warning makes sense, but I don't think it's something I can heed. I wasn't making a normative statement ("It's great to enjoy pseudoscience") but a factual one ("I have observed that I, personally, tend to find pseudoscientific ideas more interesting than real ones.") I would agree with you that it would be better if I enjoyed more rational ideas more. I also think it would be better if I liked vegetables more than chocolate. But as a responsible person, the best I can do is to eat a healthy diet despite my preference for chocolate. Likewise, as a responsible person, the best I can do is try to rationally ascertain truth while correcting for my interest in pseudoscience. This will be much more difficult than it would be for a person who found pseudoscience boring, but that's a problem I have no choice but to face.

My LiveJournal post wasn't meant to glorify my interest in pseudoscience or suggest that you should share it. It was just meant to say that it's one of my personal tastes and doesn't necessarily mean I'm anti-science or irrational any more than a person's taste for chocolate means ze's necessarily fat.

(It's quite possible it does bias me - for example, I would assign a higher probability of Atlantis having existed than most people would, although still way under 50%. It seems to me that these beliefs are based on valid evidence - but of course, a biased person would feel that way. But I do what I can do avoid that. I will certainly read more of the Overcoming Bias blog, especially with the double recommendation of Yvain and yourself.)

On a more personal note, I've never had the sort of existential crises you describe. I find myself to be a normal human being, in that I am very good at ignoring the most vital questions of existence and wondering what to have for dinner instead. I suppress this skill more often than most people because I find pondering the vital questions enjoyable, but I do so entirely by choice. I've never had an experience where there's been a philosophical problem so pressing that I haven't been able to put it down. I'm not really proud of this - sometimes I worry that it testifies to a certain level of shallowness in me - but like I said in the first paragraph, I live with the personality I've got and continue to contemplate such problems when I can.

On a more personal note still, your last paragraph disturbs me, both for what it says about you and for what I see of myself in there. It sounds like you're saying that you find life meaningless, and like you're not saying this in an unconcerned, throwaway manner but as someone who finds this honestly distressing. I hope your situation is not as depressing as you made it sound. I'll admit that I wrestle with the same problem, and that this *is* a major reason pseudoscience excites me so easily. If only finding true fulfillment really was as easy as aligning the crystals and letting the transcendant cosmic energies flow through...well, that gives me a high just thinking about it. But I do believe that even in the absence of such "solutions" there might be a real, scientifically verifiable way to achieve the same sort of breaking free. Eastern practices like meditation fascinate me precisely because of their possibility of being this sort of solution.

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Yvain Wintersong »

Your Imperial Niftiness, I didn't know that you were a psychology student. I suppose I should have known you would need some sort of skills in the area to put together a country of this size and power. That certainly explains why the Scientologists want to kill you.

I think you have hit the nail right on the head when you say Scientology hates psychology because it is one of the few fields capable of figuring out what Scientology's really up to. But I think it's more also sinister even than that. I think Scientology is essentially dark psychology. In psychology, the therapist uses his knowledge of the mind to help someone overcome problems and function independently. In Scientology, cult officials use some of the same techniques to instill new problems in people and remove their ability to function independently. Scientologists hate psychologists for the same reason that the Sith hate the Jedi.

From what I've read, Hubbard studied under one of Freud's students for a while, and was also familiar with Jung and a few other of the leading psychologists of the same period. From the lot of them, he learned enough about minds to become very good at controlling them, maybe better than the clinical psychologists of his era. Some people who have gained that knowledge have used it to teach people to control their own minds and liberate themselves. He chose to use it to control others.

I listed Scientology as an inspiration for the Order because it's a good example of a group that's learned enough of the secrets of the mind to start hacking it in an organized and successful way. I certainly don't intend to follow their example of misusing that knowledge. And I certainly don't intend to follow their example of threatening your Imperial Niftiness' life.

Ari, I am still pretty new to the systematic study of thought and reason. From your post about Scott, I'm starting to wonder if you might know more about these matters than I do. Do you have any interest in leading the Order, or in co-leading it with me?

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Chrimigules »

Hmm... talk about closed.
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Aurangzeb Khan »

Scott is the sort of chap whose idea for a present for a casual acquaintance met over the internet is the Illuminatus Trilogy! (which I did eventually read and found to be quite enjoyable in its own twisted way thank you), I would say that if anyone could penetrate the hidden mysteries of... well anything really... it would be him and thus he is an ideal candidate to head any such order.
After all, my fellow deists do not believe that God intervenes much (or at all) in human affairs, and may not even be aware of the existence of humans, so perhaps the deities we know--Allah, Jesus, Zeus and the Greek Pantheon, Amun-Rah--were beings or a single being created knowingly or unkowingly by God in order to make life easier for humans?
If 'God' is unaware or has scant regard for humanity, what purpose would it serve him to create an intermediary to make life easier for Humans? I would suggest that it was rather humanity that created 'god' rather than the other way round, so as to fulfil a need for completeness in ones worldview. Like quantum-physics, but with feeling, God is convenient and maleable concept that can be used to plug any gap in knowledge at that particular time.

The concept of God has also been useful for reassuring the plebs that they should accept their lot and a good stick to brandish in the direction of the disobedient.

My beliefs on the matter in general, from my irrational side, which as we all know looms large over most things, are shot through with my habitual cynicism, and accordingly I feel that if there are higher beings out there, and if they represent themselves to humans as deities they are probably lying through their teeth; to me it has always seemed that YHWH was an over-promoted demiurge and Allah naught but an envious jinn.

I have always been inclined towards an atheistic or at least agnostic world view for the somewhat perverse reason that physics baffles me more than religion ever could. I regard science as the process of discovery - many fields of scientific endeavour entail following the chain of evidence back in time and out into space in pursuit of the origins of the almost unimaginable cosmic forces that created the universe. Religion however belongs in the realms of history. The divergent creeds and prophecies are recorded in the historical record and their development can be traced over time, suggesting that faiths shares a common origin with philosophy, namely speculation. The difference being that no one was ever put to death for being a Neoplatonist... well Hypatia aside, and that was by a mob of Christians doing their best to prefigure Muslim fanatics.

Needless to say if death does not prove to be just a dreamless sleep and there is a vengeful deity waiting on the other side I will grovel along with the best of them... either that or challenge Death to a game of twister. :knife

As for Scientology, it is all so blatant that the amazing thing is people fall for it. Mind you people used to say that about National Socialism... and Christianity. :jesus

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Chrimigules »

What's wrong with putting neoplatonists to death?
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Aurangzeb Khan »

Perhaps, but if we started with the Neoplatonists where would it end? Intellectual honesty would compel us to exterminate Middle Platonism, and we can't really just go round killing people because they've read a bit of Plotinus (that in itself should have been punishment enough for them).

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Scott of Hyperborea »

Ardy, enjoying Illuminatus hardly makes me a poster child for rationalism. In fact, it's a good example of the tendency I mentioned in the post Ari replied to - a tendency to find pseudoscience more attractive than the real thing.

In fact...Ari, how can you possibly like the trilogy as much as you do, given your previous post?

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Aurangzeb Khan »

Ardy, enjoying Illuminatus hardly makes me a poster child for rationalism. In fact, it's a good example of the tendency I mentioned in the post Ari replied to - a tendency to find pseudoscience more attractive than the real thing.
Well if all else fails Scott you can be a poster boy for those Illuminati who hide behind a veneer of rationalism. :evil

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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Ari Rahikkala »

In fact...Ari, how can you possibly like the trilogy as much as you do, given your previous ?
A good question. I never really realised that would be a problem. Anyway, I think... well... really, it's become just fiction to me by now. Well, OK, I do keep an eye out for the number of 23, but I do that firmly for the sake of entertainment ...
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Ari Rahikkala
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Ari Rahikkala »

Yvain Wintersong wrote:Ari, I am still pretty new to the systematic study of thought and reason. From your post about Scott, I'm starting to wonder if you might know more about these matters than I do. Do you have any interest in leading the Order, or in co-leading it with me?
Thank you for the offer, but... no. I don't think leadership in an organisation like this should be given to someone who manages to impress others with stories of struggles for rationality. I say you take the position of leadership, because the fact is, the greatest danger to the Order is apathy, and you, having come up with the idea yourself, might be less likely to to be apathetic about it...
No-one should be without a parasol, Sirocco.

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Yvain Wintersong
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Yvain Wintersong »

Yvain shoves his way past a group of people talking about God, quantum mechanics, religion, the Illuminati, and burning Neoplatonists. By the time he reaches the Multi-Temple, he has a bit of a headache but is convinced that this is a group of people the Order can work with.

Ari, I'm sad to hear that but I'll try to live up to your expectations. I don't think apathy will be a problem for me. If anything, the problem will be getting me to shut up :)

Your Imperial Niftiness, can you create a forum for the Order and make me a moderator?

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benkern
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by benkern »

*points at Soloralism, points at Multi Temple, points at Yvain, smiles*
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hypatias mom
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by hypatias mom »

Nope, I don't think anyone visits that section any more. No point in letting the building go to waste....

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Kaiser Mors V
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Re: I'd like to start a religion

Post by Kaiser Mors V »

*burns the solorarist part art the multi-temple...*

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