Order: Andreas

[Andreas the Wise]

ANS History (Battleship, Iowa Class) (5000)
ANS Markos (Aries Class Destroyer - Anti Aircraft) (1500)
ANS Ultima (Aries Class Destroyer - Anti Aircraft) (1500)
ANS Anderson (Aries Class Destroyer - Anti Sub) (1500)
ANS Iosia (Aries Class Destroyer - Guided Missile Destroyer) (1500)
ANS Tymaria (Aquarius Class Carrier) (1100)
ANS Apollo (Modified Aquarius Class Carrier (to carry ground units better)) (1100)
ANS Jarti (Typhoon Class Submarine) (1100)
ANS Jaso (Typhoon Class Submarine) (1100)
15 SH-60 Seahawk (1050)

[Total Navy 16450]
Total Erb therefore 3290.

Yes, all the ship names have horrible historical jokes in them. Yes, some of them aren't standard models (Aries and Aquarius are Tokian models, and Tyhpoon is the submarine guarding the Ocean Palace. I'll need to buy another 10 of them eventually.
And ANS stands for Atterockian Naval Ship/Sub, because Atterockian Sailing Ship didn't cut it.

I'll transfer the Erb when you announce your approval. Let you work out the raw materials cost.

[Austi_Scot]

Let me work out the details of the raw material cost and get back with you, soonish.

[Austi_Scot]

My cost appears to be 3290. Why would I sell this to you at my cost?

[Andreas the Wise]

You've definitely calculated it wrong then, if it's at cost. I designed the costs to be less. (did you divide by 5?)

[Austi_Scot]

Following is what I looked at and how I did my calculations, I suppose I need some directions and would appreciate directions about how you figure out the raw materials cost.

First I took into consideration that you said "Units cost the amount of Erb of 1/5th their strength in Anunia Points." in the New SCIRA Proposal. I then went to the Anunia charter to look at each item and noted that you did an excellent job of listing the strength of each item.

I then divided the strength by 5 to get my cost and added up my cost, which came to 3290; Which is the price you are offering to pay.

In addition you already know my objections to you determining at what price people can sell their goods and items whereas I think the business owner and customer should come to their own agreement.

ITEM # 1)
ANS History (Battleship, Iowa Class) (5000) my cost 1000

ITEM #2)
ANS Markos (Aries Class Destroyer - Anti Aircraft) (1500) my cost 300
ANS Ultima (Aries Class Destroyer - Anti Aircraft) (1500) my cost 300
ANS Anderson (Aries Class Destroyer - Anti Sub) (1500) my cost 300
ANS Iosia (Aries Class Destroyer - Guided Missile Destroyer) (1500) my cost 300

ITEM #3)
ANS Tymaria (Aquarius Class Carrier) (1100) my cost 220
ANS Apollo (Modified Aquarius Class Carrier (to carry ground units better)) (1100) my cost 220

ITEM #4)
ANS Jarti (Typhoon Class Submarine) (1100) my cost 220
ANS Jaso (Typhoon Class Submarine) (1100) my cost 220

ITEM#5
15 SH-60 Seahawk (1050) my cost 210

[Andreas the Wise]

Units cost 1/5th their strength - which is exactly what I did, and what I pay you.

Always remember that it's their strength, and thus if you give someone a cheaper unit, it's weaker, so you're not actually doing them any favours (training discount aside). Apart from training, or units specifically designed by you, there shouldn't need to be any negotiation of cost - there's just me paying for the units at the strength I want. That's a fundamental part of the recwar system. If you *really* want you can say "Hey, you buy a 5000 Battleship (1000 erb) and I'll give you 50 erb back." That way the unit is still purchased at cost, you still pay your raw material cost (1000 points, so 200 erb) and you give the person a "discount" AFTER that. But that's only if you want to. I don't want/need a discount.

Your cost as an orbat seller is the raw material cost for each unit.

Sub - 900
Ship (any) - 1000
Helicopter - 50

Dividing these by 5, of course.

So there are 7 ships. 7*1000 = 7000.
And there are 2 subs. 2*900 = 1800
And there are 15 helis. 15*50 = 750
Total Raw Material Cost 9550. Now, divide this by 5.
1910. 1910 is thus your Raw Material Cost to pay to Minitrade. I pay you 3290, which is the total cost of the units in erb (and 1/5th their total strength). Your profit is therefore 1380.

[Austi_Scot]

So, when you said cost is 1/5 their strength in Anunia Points you were saying that an Orbat dealer can retail them for 1/5 of the Anunia Points?

So, when you said "And all people who currently have an orbat will be able to buy the other 4/5ths they'll now deserve." You meant they are to use 1/5 the SCIRA prices for their "wholesale" price?

I had understood you to be saying the wholesale cost was 1/5 the strength in Anunia Points. Well, I guess I had had misunderstood it that way. Sorry I didn´t get that part til now. I apologize.

Since the retail price is in SCIRA I will agree to it and ask for a down payment of 2000 Erb, the balance due on delivery.

[Andreas the Wise]

So, when you said cost is 1/5 their strength in Anunia Points you were saying that an Orbat dealer can retail them for 1/5 of the Anunia Points?

Yes.

So, when you said "And all people who currently have an orbat will be able to buy the other 4/5ths they'll now deserve." You meant they are to use 1/5 the SCIRA prices for their "wholesale" price?

No. I meant that people who already bought abought some magic troops) at the old prices paid 1 erb for one point. Now prices are 1/5th less. So they've effectively missed out on 4/5ths of their possible purchase, and they get that back as a one time credit. For orbat dealers who bought it from their own shop, use wholesale credit, but for other people, use normal retail credit.

I had understood you to be saying the wholesale cost was 1/5 the strength in Anunia Points. Well, I guess I had had misunderstood it that way. Sorry I didn´t get that part til now. I apologize.

Sorry about the confusion

Since the retail price is in SCIRA I will agree to it and ask for a down payment of 2000 Erb, the balance due on delivery.

I have to wait till delivery now?
I'll just pay you the full price now. I trust you.

[Austi_Scot]

Your ships, your subs, and your helicopters are here for delivery.
It´s too bad you have all these ships and no sailors to man them and no Navy pilot to fly those helicopters. May I ask, is this equipment to sit empty on the waters, as if ghost ships?

ANS History (Battleship, Iowa Class) (5000)

ANS Markos (Aries Class Destroyer - Anti Aircraft) (1500)
ANS Ultima (Aries Class Destroyer - Anti Aircraft) (1500)
ANS Anderson (Aries Class Destroyer - Anti Sub) (1500)
ANS Iosia (Aries Class Destroyer - Guided Missile Destroyer) (1500)

ANS Tymaria (Aquarius Class Carrier) (1100)
ANS Apollo (Modified Aquarius Class Carrier (to carry ground units better)) (1100)

ANS Jarti (Typhoon Class Submarine) (1100)
ANS Jaso (Typhoon Class Submarine) (1100)

15 SH-60 Seahawk (1050) Microton

[Andreas the Wise]

Er ... Austi. Standard orbat procedure is that ships come with crew to man them. Carrier's don't come with planes, obviously (as they would cost a lot more then) but they come with crew. It's been like that in every recwar fought.

[Austi_Scot]

So you´re saying I should use my 1380 profit to provide you with crews for 1 Battleship, 4 Destroyers, 2 Carriers, 2 subs, and 15 helicopters? Each ship would have a complement of several thousand on the low side. How is the troop strength figured in, just everyone says , "I also have 5000 personnel on that ship."?

This makes no sense to me. The most sailors I can purchase at my price is 7667, which in no way would be enough. A full compliment on one of your Carriers should be 1788 or more on the low side.

I also don´t agree that you should just get the personal for free as that would mean you are getting them for nothing whereas I as an Orbat dealer have to pay to get them, makes no sense at all. If the personnel comes free with the purchase of a ship why buy sailors at all.

Indeed why even have SCIRA prices on infantry at all as by this logic they should come with the equipment?

Why did I purchase sailors at all to train the Naval Base? It would appear I could have purchased a ship and had the sailors for free.

I'm sorry if I seem to be going all wrong on this, but it just doesn't make sense to me that you can have a 1100 strength ship and part of that is about 5000 fighting men when each infantry is a stre1. I equated an infantry personnel to be the same as a sailor, or as an Air Force pilot.

[Andreas the Wise]

I think you're confused because you haven't recwarred before, Austi.

You don't have to do anything more. I've bought my ships, and you've paid the raw materials. That's all.

Ships, tanks, planes etc - all of them have a crew/pilots/drivers included within them as part of their cost/strength. Note that this is crew only, not a fighting force. So, for example, a tank would have the two or three drivers it needed to move around, fire etc. It would not come already full to the brim with 20 SAS operatives. If for some reason the tank was rendered inoperable, the people who used to drive it would be of no fighting use (though potentially for backstory use).

Why would you buy infantry separately? Because you want infantry as infantry, or because you want a fighting force to put in your IFVs or put on your carriers etc. Crew on Battleship = battleship that can fire all its weapons and move, but crew can't fight (or at least, can't fight orbatted units). Marines on Battleship with crew = battleship that can fire all its weapons and move, and has a bunch of marines that can engage the enemy if enemy for some reason infiltrate the ship.
If it helps, think of the crew the ship comes with as a skeleton crew.

You might be confused because I bought some crew for my two ships in my magic orbat. I bought them because, being pirate ships, I want the crew to be able to actually fight.

Why did you purchase sailors? I don't know, I assumed you had a reason for doing so. If you bought them because you thought you *had* to buy them separately from ships, well, you can always add them to a ship you buy and use them as an extra fighting force.

Sorry. While I *tried* to write SCIRA to work for people who didn't know CITRA, I didn't try to write it for people who'd never recwarred before. But ask anyone who's fought internationally or under SNARL. It's always been that any vehicle/ship/plane comes with the crew needed to run it included in the cost, but not to be used as extra fighters.

[Austi_Scot]

I´m fine with all that - it´s just frustrating to operate under such false impressions and to have to make so many mistakes. Even after reading the Jasonian War I didn´t catch on that people had an automatic crew to run the equipment. Maybe you should consider teaching a recwar class too.

For me it means adjusting my plans a bit is all, but are you saying you bought all those ships, and subs, and all you can do is have the standard crew drive them around, they can´t actually fight?

[Allot]

I agree- MALARBOR DEMANDS A RECWAR CLASS!!!

[Austi_Scot]

Andreas,

If you would, please let me know how you came up with the Aquarius Class Carrier.

Did you base it on an RL Carrier Class, if so which one?

Also, how did you come up with the strength of 1100?

Thank you for this help.

[Andreas the Wise]

I´m fine with all that - it´s just frustrating to operate under such false impressions and to have to make so many mistakes. Even after reading the Jasonian War I didn´t catch on that people had an automatic crew to run the equipment. Maybe you should consider teaching a recwar class too.

For me it means adjusting my plans a bit is all, but are you saying you bought all those ships, and subs, and all you can do is have the standard crew drive them around, they can´t actually fight?

Yep, the standard crew needed to make the ship itself fully functional and able to fight, but the crew can't fight.

Recwar class ... I'm not the best person to do one.

For Aquarius, I'll ask the c