Amazing that after all these years...

[Gman Russell]

...my unnoficial guide to Cedrism is still the leading authority on the mysteries. Can I just make them canon and get it over with? I think i'm still the high priest somehow...

[Erik Mortis]

I think there are still errors.. I just never corrected them.... and proly won't.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

I think there are still errors.. I just never corrected them.... and proly won't.

Well if the Jews Christians and Muslims can get away with venerating books littered with continuity errors as the inspired revelations of an infallible god there can be no real harm in making an unofficial guide to Cedrism canonical by default.

[Gman Russell]

Then so be it, it is now the official guide to Cedrism!

[Jacobus Loki]

(Detonates 4kG of C4 followed by two strings of ladyfingers)

Huzzah!

[Erik Mortis]

ummmmm ok. I can always edit it later.

[Gman Russell]

Two years is long enough to wait for an... "edit", Erik.

[Shyriath]

Would my own humble musings on Cedrism have any bearings on the consideration of Cedrist canon?

...Actually, I've sort of started tweaking it again. I rediscovered the file lurking on my hard drive earlier today, and along with it some notes that I think I must have jotted down while talking with Erik. Between the notes and the stuff in that thread, there's easily room for more speculation.

[Gman Russell]

Maybe a collaberation is in order...?

[Shyriath]

(Sorry for the delay, there've been some family issues on my mind. Nothing BAD, just... preoccupying.)

Sure, collaboration is good. My thoughts, and my notes, are a bit scattered, but there were some things I had been considering in particular. I'm going to kind of set down my main line of thought below, so let me know what you think. If the Prophet has anything to say on any of it, of course, I'd welcome his input as well.

...About the Daemon Fish, and the Planes. I was considering how to explain why it is they take just about any soul (even that of a God, if outside the Celestial Temple, as I recall) to Balgurd, tainted or not. It's worth asking: what, exactly, are the Daemon Fish?

Obviously, their behavior and abilities are somewhat different than that of Daemons or Descendi. One gets the impression that they're not intelligent beings in the same way that I assume the Demonic are; you wouldn't imagine the Fish actually talking or contemplating what they're doing. They seem less evil in the conscious sense as simply predators... eternally ravenous ones. They seek souls, perhaps, because they hunger for them. More on this later.

Now, I don't think we have a detailed explanation of the beginnings of the Planes and Realms, except perhaps that they all resulted from the Big Bang (Big B0O0O0/\/\?), or what either the Plane of Order or Plane of Chaos is like or contains other than the Celestial Temple or Balgurd respectively. But my proposal is that the Planes are sort of embodiments of the extremes of spiritual development.

For example, one who embraces, and in particular learns about, the web of life and the role of harmony, attains a state in which one has power over it, and through death and rebirth gradually ceases to be a mere node in the web, their selves beginning to extend into the actual strands; they slowly become PART of the connections that bind all things and people together. This is the process of Transcendance. And at last, when someone has merged with the web to the greatest extent possible, when they are part of the very glue that holds together our universe, that one becomes a God. The Plane of Order, then, is what arises from being a part of the Web of Life; it IS the web, embodied as a place.

One who travels the opposite route, then, who over lifetimes rejects that which connects one to all else; who comes to live only for zirself, and to use, disrupt, and destroy one's fellow beings for zir own purposes and amusements... that person weakens the connections between zirself and the Web of Life, and through zir actions weakens the connections of others as well. One who succeeds in severing all connection between zirself and the Web, cut loose without anchor, has no home but the Void, and gains power from working outside the constraints of the Web rather than from working with it. The embodiment of the lawless state beyond the Web, then, is the Plane of Chaos.

(Note: Considering a tendency toward mistrust of magic in Shirerithian fictional history, this could provide a religious explanation why. Magic may be, in fact, consdered to be powered by going "outside the bounds": by bringing in the influence of a realm where conventional laws of reality and relation no longer apply. But the cost is damage to what's already existing... basically, the equivalent of trying to rearrange a building to a more convenient state by knocking out a vital support beam.)

Now, the Divine and the Demonic inhabit portions of their respective planes, and presumably this is what is meant by the Divine Realm and the Demonic Realm. But Gods and Daemons, Transcendi and Descendi, are all presumed to be former human beings, their souls either hallowed or distorted by their karmic paths. But one assumes that the Plane of Order and Plane of Chaos existed before human beings did; indeed, since the beginning. Was there, then, a time before our Gods had yet come forth, before the first Daemons set foot in Balgurd? What might have dwelled in those planes before their coming?

Now, back to the Daemon Fish. What has been seen of examples of both Divine and Demonic indicates that, being former humans, they all possess something akin to our own intelligence; the Daemon Fish apparently do not. Furthermore, the Fish seem to have access to our Plane in a way that most Daemons and Descendi do not (or else we would be in the End Times already); the Fish can enter our world and steal away souls without evident difficulty, only being barred from the Celestial Temple.

So I wonder if the Fish might instead be considered original denizens of the Plane of Chaos, spawned there out of its sheer unpredictability before the first Daemons. Perhaps they are not what they are because of purposeful and neglectful rejection of the web of life, but because they were never truly in it in the first place. But nothing can truly live in a state of wild Chaos, because then it would not be permanent enough to live at all; it would shortly disappear back into the tangle of possibility that would produce it. Therefore, the Fish would fade to nothing without a means of sustaining their own persistence and reality; in short, they are parasites upon the Web of Life, stealing and consuming bits of it in order to maintain themselves.

And the more orderly the thing consumed, the more potent it would be for them, but the less common it would be. So, it may be that the reason the Daemon Fish do not carry us all away (other than the threat of being eaten by the Dolphin-God Ari) is that there is food that is more plentiful, if less satisfying; perhaps animals and plants that die before their time has come. But humans, with their powerful souls, would be much more tempting and nourishing targets.

Something else emphasized in my notes is that even the Gods are not immune to the predation of the Daemon Fish. This, too, would make sense; the soul of a God would be a feast for such creatures. They could not enter the Celestial Temple, because the nature of the Plane of Order would make it a poisonous environment for the chaotic Fish; but a God going abroad in the mortal world would be vulnerable to their attacks, although possibly it would take many of them to do it.

But that, in turn, leads to another question: what would happen to a God brought down by the Daemon Fish? Would such a powerful soul simply waste away to a pitiful Descendus, or would they be directly converted into a mighty Daemon? And, here's a biggie: has it happened before? Is there a God who would once have been worthy of the Divine Census now toiling in Balgurd, in preparation for the daemonic invasion of the End Times?

[Gman Russell]

(Note: Considering a tendency toward mistrust of magic in Shirerithian fictional history, this could provide a religious explanation why.

They don't like magic because magic is what caused the destruction of the Khaz-Modian empire. *nod nod* That was the original explanation. That magic would blast apart Brookshire and turn it into a chain of islands like So-Sara is now.

They seem less evil in the conscious sense as simply predators... eternally ravenous ones

In my Phoenix Forest thread (never did finish it...) a deamon of Balgurd was immune to the affects of the fish, and could even ride them like mounts. Maybe because deamons dont have souls anymore? They must have something or they would poof away like the deamon fish. Or we could simply make me a liar.

(other than the threat of being eaten by the Dolphin-God Ari)

Why can he eat the fish? Maybe that's what happens when a fish eats the soul of a god? It transcends to a higher state!

But that, in turn, leads to another question: what would happen to a God brought down by the Daemon Fish? Would such a powerful soul simply waste away to a pitiful Descendus, or would they be directly converted into a mighty Daemon? And, here's a biggie: has it happened before? Is there a God who would once have been worthy of the Divine Census now toiling in Balgurd, in preparation for the daemonic invasion of the End Times?

See above! I really like my idea!

[Leo Fenrir]

In my Phoenix Forest thread

What actually happens in that? I still haven't found the time or courage to read it.

[Gman Russell]

I's still not finished *grumble*, but it involved my character Cerune, Ardy, and the end of the world.

[Shyriath]

They don't like magic because magic is what caused the destruction of the Khaz-Modian empire. *nod nod* That was the original explanation. That magic would blast apart Brookshire and turn it into a chain of islands like So-Sara is now.

I knew there was a fictional-history basis for it, but having a religious one never hurts. Although, my impression hadn't been that the magic had destroyed Khaz Modan so directly. The way I understood it, the Elemental Mages used their magic to breach the dimensions and accidentally summoned Rrakanychan (I'm amazed I can still spell that), and that HE, Sword of Fire in hand, did most of the destruction.

In my Phoenix Forest thread (never did finish it...) a deamon of Balgurd was immune to the affects of the fish, and could even ride them like mounts. Maybe because deamons dont have souls anymore? They must have something or they would poof away like the deamon fish. Or we could simply make me a liar.

I kinda figured that the Daemons would not be so much affected by the Fish. My theory goes something like this: the Daemons, being former mortals, presumably retain some shred of the properties they carried with them from their mortal lives, whether that's their souls or something else; they're somewhat more "real" than the Fish are, which is why they do not go poof. But there would be enough of Chaos in their nature to make them either immune or unappealing to the Fish.

Why can he eat the fish? Maybe that's what happens when a fish eats the soul of a god? It transcends to a higher state!

Could be, could be... obviously, the Gods wouldn't be too keen on sacrificing too many of their own number to get Fish-eaters, but if it had happened once and Ari was the result... Maybe it could be the equivalent of indigestion for a Fish. A Fish gets strong enough soul to nourish, it stays a Fish; it gets too MUCH, it gets overcome and transformed.

That might even help explain the rarity of the event, too. If too few Fish attack a God, they get driven off. If too many attack, they might succeed, but the share of feed for each would be too small to cause the transformation. But a school of Fish just big enough to succeed might get enough God-soul per fish...

[Gman Russell]

Perhaps Rrakanychan did do most of the work, but I don't remember him being so powerfull as to shatter a continent!


Concering the Balgurd Fish, maybe the fish struck a deal with the deamons to not harm them, in exchange for free access to the surface?


and if you agree that's where Ari came from, then we can declare that topic closed and move on.

[Shyriath]

On Rrakanychan: Well, that's the thing, I had never heard of actual continent-shattering, just that Khaz Modanian civilization got torn down. My impression was that the continent had always been like that.

On the Fish: Hmm. Which way around do you mean that? The Fish seem to have a lot fewer problems getting to the surface than Daemons do, so it seems that the Daemons would depend on the Fish for their transportation needs. So maybe Daemons can damage the Fish somehow?

On Ari: Yes, that seems to work. I wonder what his namesake thinks of all this, if he's reading.

[Gman Russell]