Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

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Ari Rahikkala
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Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

Post by Ari Rahikkala »

I figured that since we've got a bunch of new people who haven't yet acclimatised to posting in the Deeply Shirithian threads (i.e. anywhere outside of word association and their own county), it's time to do some pop culture / getting-to-know-each-other threads in the OT. So, yeah, fictional characters that we like. Post them :). Here's the beginning of my creativity-free top 7:

7. Ylermi, from a poem of the same name by Eino Leino.

I could expound at some length about how brilliant the author was, but it should suffice to say he's popular enough in Finland that his birthday is a flag day. Oh, and BTW, over a thousand boys (and five girls) in Finland have been named after this character - whose name was made up by Leino just for this poem.

Ylermi's story is quite simple. He rides his horse to church one day and proclaims that he's awesome. The religious authorities (in this case, a wooden statue of Mary, later in the poem things like a stone statue of Jesus, a stone column, and a booming voice from the sky) seem to have something against his not dwelling in despair, so they try to mess up his life: "Now you will repent, after your house has burned down."

Ylermi doesn't repent, oh no he doesn't. He declares on the ashes that he'll get a new house built, a better one than this. And goes back to the church and booms at God not to tread on him. So what happens? The statue of Jesus tells him to repent, because his wife is now dead. Ylermi responds by saying it's time to get a new wife, and a better one this time. Again at the church, the walls tell him that his son has gone mad and it's time for him to start bending his knee - so Ylermi goes home, confirms that his son indeed is wild. His response? Why, he takes the bastard down with his own sword, and calls for a new, better one to be made. Then he rides back to the church, jumping in through the window (again looking awesome). He tells the Powers that Be that he slayed his own son, and no, he's still not out for mercy.

Well, at this point God decides he's had enough, so he pretty much tells the guy to go to Hell, and helpfully opens up the way for him. Ylermi, knowing he can't escape, wants to leave some sign of his defiance to the world, so he cuts off his (gauntleted) arm and throws it at the wall. Doing that, he declares (and I'm sorry I'm doing such a poor job of translating it) that a time will sooner come that men don't bow before death and go groveling to their graves, than the gauntlet let go of the stone.

And in the final line of the poem, of course, the gauntlet is still there.

Prometheus might have defied the gods in order to benefit mankind, but Ylermi impressed me more: Screaming straight in the face of the divine authorities simply because of sheer cussedness, and *about* sheer cussedness, which was unacceptable to religious morality. He's been called Nietzschean by many (and I swear I'll stop the arbitrary educated-sounding namedropping now), and for good reason: He just wants to have his own morality, one that's not the Christian morality tells him he's a horrible person and should regret his actions. That might not count as a very good kind of morality - but to me, it's still scores better than the "what God says is right" end of the continuum.

Of course, he's punished for all of this by death. How do you expect a story like this would work if he were to continue living? If he got what he wanted, it'd break the story, and if he didn't get it, he'd hardly have tried hard enough, and so would become a much weaker character. His martyrdom has meaning, if not for any other reason than its uncommonness.



Aand... well, I've got six more characters, but I realised I apparently have a bunch to say about a bunch of them (though not as long as this one because I won't have to translate their life stories), and this post is getting kind of lengthy for a random off-topic thing, so I'll tell you about the rest later. You're free to guess which characters from various works of fiction are in my top 6: I'll even go ahead and tell that two of them are human ;).
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Re: Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

Post by Hesam Jayatar »

I'm noticing a common theme...

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Icebreaker
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Re: Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

Post by Icebreaker »

SAINT OF KILLERS.

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b3n|<3r|\|
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Re: Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

Post by b3n|<3r|\| »

That guy does sound like quite a dude. A better, less literal version of the poignant phrase would be:
Before the gauntlet lets go of the stone, men will no longer bow before death and go grovelling to their graves.
Though your translation was great, not that I know what the original looked like, but the idea is certainly very clear.

Indeed, on reflection, this story is rather awesome. Thanks for sharing Ari. :)
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Ari Rahikkala
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Re: Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

Post by Ari Rahikkala »

Benkern reminded me of the existence of this thread. Spoilers ahead.

6. Harold Zidler, from Moulin Rouge!.

Now, Moulin Rouge! is full of people who either have no goals or no idea how to get to their goals. Duke Monroth is a petty hedonistic villain who, it seems, only really wants to bed (or rape) Satine. Christian is a clueless poet who's just going whichever way his heart happens to be tugging him, whereas Satine decides her (presumably lifelong) dream of being an actress isn't really that important after all when a pretty poet boy comes along. And the supporting cast, well, they're mostly just comic relief, though I guess there's something to be said for Toulouse-Lautrec. It's not like he does all that much, but at least it's easy to imagine he would.

Zidler, though. There's a man who knows his place, and what to do about it. I know zilch about the social dynamics of Belle Époque France, but even if I did, I wouldn't care how untruthful the picture this film paints is, because I like it: Decadent, petty aristocrats (represented by Duke Monroth) are still in power and one has to get their support to finance anything. At the same time, a ridiculously competent cabaret owner (Zidler) who employs at least dozens and entertains hundreds and hundreds of people in huge parties is still bossed around and considered a part of the "underworld". Zidler works with full understanding of his disadvantaged position, and with the setbacks against him in the plot, and makes pretty much the best of every situation.

It's not that his goals are all that noble. He wants a big nifty modern theater, he wants Satine to succeed at her life, and that's pretty much it. It's that he manages to stay a decent person while working toward those goals, with the cards he's been dealt, that makes him such a wonderful character in my books. When he finds out about Satine's relationship, he appeals to her dreams of a good career, and tells her to end the relationship - as close as you can get to the right thing to do unlessyou have some kind of a ridiculous obsession with love. When he has to cover for Satine's illness, he completely gives up his dignity telling the Duke how awesome it'll be when he finally gets to bed her. He saves Christian's life, too. Twice, in fact. First by having the presence of mind to convince Satine to disown him, second by punching the Duke in the face in the end when it's obvious everything's gone to PRH anyway.

I'm not sure what other people thought of the "we're creatures of the underworld, we can't afford to love" line. I can see how the pathos would seem too overblown. To me, it gave the goosebumps the first time I watched the film. It was what really sold the character. He knows his position, he knows what he can afford - especially when just a few scenes later he's singing about how the show must go on in the midst of workers fixing up the theatre for opening night.

It helps that he's also a bit of a trickster and a good improviser :).

(By the way, regarding the Duke, I'm not sure his motives regarding Satine are *strictly* just lust and possessiveness. Mostly, yeah. But really, love's such a strange thing. Consider that it really does seem he has more to offer than Christian does... especially since Christian seems just as jealous and, after the poetry-reading scene is over, lustful.anyway)
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Re: Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

Post by Icebreaker »

Ari Rahikkala wrote:6. Harold Zidler, from Moulin Rouge!.
THIS THREAD JUST MADE THE JUMP FROM "CONTEXT-SENSITIVE" TO "RECURSIVELY ENUMERABLE".

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Ari Rahikkala
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Re: Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

Post by Ari Rahikkala »

Icebreaker wrote:THIS THREAD JUST MADE THE JUMP FROM "CONTEXT-SENSITIVE" TO "RECURSIVELY ENUMERABLE".
Don't worry, Jax isn't in the list ^_^
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Re: Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

Post by Icebreaker »

"Instant paralysis, boy they weren't kidding, were they? But don't worry Mr. Robbs... you'll still be able... to feel."

=D =D =D =D =D =D =D =D =D

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Re: Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

Post by Maksym Hadjimehmetov »

Captain John Yossarian... need I say more? ;)
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Re: Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

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DONOVAN THE ASTROPHYSICIST.

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Re: Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

Post by Kaiser Loki III »

Captain John Yossarian
Milo Minderbinder! He'd fit in great with the economy.
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Ari Rahikkala
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Re: Let's talk about fictional characters that we like.

Post by Ari Rahikkala »

Benkern insisted I continue this thread :(

Ohh, Icebreaker's going to like this next one. Especially for the profusion of links. I prepared for this post with an archive binge. You have been warned.

The character for this time is... Florence Ambrose, from Freefall. Now we're dealing with a webcomic with sometimes profoundly silly humour here - this is the sort of webcomic that spent most of the second half of 2009 in a big pie fight set in a "strategic pie reserve", and involving things like exploding cigars, a French ninja, and people being tricked into commanding robots to pie them in the face. You wouldn't really expect much from the plot, in fact it's only actually spanned a couple of weeks of story time within the over a decade that the comic has been updating. But, beyond the silliness there's a lot of carefully researched hard science fiction, and even better, Florence pretty consistently plays the only sane (wo)man to most of the rest of the cast - and so has actually ended up being a really well developed and consistent character IMO.

Florence Ambrose is a Bowman's Wolf. That means three things, basically:

1. She's more or less human, to the extent of being fully able to function in human society. We don't get to see how much learning and conditioning it took to get her to be like that, though.
2. She's genetically an engineered red wolf, and as a result she looks a great deal like one (though she usually walks upright). She has an incredibly acute sense of smell and of hearing, but she's colourblind. She has a large set of wolf- and dog-like (not *completely* sure where the latter kind came from, but oh well) instincts in working order.
3. She's an artificial intelligence. Granted, a biological one, but an AI nonetheless, with many features you'd expect people to build into one, for instance an on/off switch.

She's also highly intelligent (with a habit of ocasionally technobabbling supporting characters to confusion) and a very capable engineer. Which means that she's smart enough to come up with ways to reconcile the conflicts in her nature. She makes herself feel comfortable about her social status by bringing a pretzel to a restaurant and eating it first. She prefers to drink water in private because she's only able to do it by lapping it up. She is perfectly aware of her artificial safeguards and how to circumvent them, though she doesn't like to reveal that to everyone.

And there's more. Really, to be honest this is one of those times where the work of fiction has failed, in that I'm not going squeee so much at the character as at the author, for all the things that he's thought to take into account. Florence facepalms after realising she "buried" a tupperware bowl under towels in her fridge, she considers scent information to be an integral part of her memory. Having been conditioned to aid humans in fatal danger, she fantasizes about freeing prisoners on death row (and may I just add that the tail-wag gets her emotional state here across brilliantly). Eating near a trashcan makes her expect to be hit with a rolled-up newspaper. I could keep listing these all day, there's just an incredible amount of detail.

I think the one scene that really sold the character to me was the beginning of the, er, Memento-ish sequence. Florence gets knocked out with the off-switch injected with an amnestic, and the scientist studying her thinks she's not going to have any idea of what's going on... so when she wakes up she smells the air and immediately deduces what happened. Soon after figures out a way to deal with her memory impairment, too, and figures out a plot in her impaired state.

In all, while she's not that far removed from human, she's still one of the best examples of an understandable yet alien intelligence in fiction that I know of. She might have humanlike motivations, but she does experience the world in a very different way, and it's simply a pleasure to see her interact with a human (and robot) society, and come up with ways to cope with an environment not designed for her. Pie fights aside, Freefall does scrutinize otherness in a really quite sober way, and it's an accomplishment to write a character that plausibly balances being human and two different decidedly non-human things at the same time.
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