I put on my overalls and leprechaun hat

[Ari Rahikkala]

Shireroth! I shall reapply for the meaningless institution of citizenship, assuming you either agree with my answer to the poll question, convince me that my answer is wrong, or convince me that my answer is even less important than whether I'm a Shirithian citizen or not.

[Harvey Steffke]

I think, based on some of your statements to me during the "Harvey Rebellion" on your general view of micronations, I know which option you prefer. So the only question for me is if I want to encourage or discourage it.

[Daniel Farewell]

Happy birthday to my favourite Finnish leprechaun!

[CJ Miller]

Today's not his birthday.

[Andreas the Wise]

Ari.

P1. In no micronation that has more than one citizen will all the citizens always agree on everything.
P2. To be a citizen of a micronation you should only need to agree on the major stuff.
P3. Secret plans to mess with people psychologically and drive them out of the hobby are not a major part of Shireroth*.
C. Whether people agree with you on the moral status of Operation Light Blue Octopus or not should not affect your citizenship.

*At least, not within the last couple years.

The first premise may actually be unnecessary to reach the conclusion, come to think of it. But it's a helpful justification for the second premise.

[Falkner van der Sluijs]

Fuck that, get back to work, you bald and bearded bum!

[Ari Rahikkala]

Compelling, Andreas, but beside the point. I'm not sure I belong in a nation where it is commonplace to gladly participate in a prank to rile up someone who'd get riled up over something sooner or later anyway (*), and then when they inevitably do get riled up, suddenly act as if it was a terrible idea and something to whip oneself over. Come on, guys, I'm just trying to make you a *little* bit evil. Is that too much asked when the prank was fun, the results interesting.. and when it was you guys (well, Scott, Shyriath, Erik and Ardy from what I remember... and apparently at least Jake and Mike too, now that I checked the Operation thread) who were being so evil in the first place?

(*) For instance, notice how right now the accusation that Elliot is making is not only fictional (as Delphi's account never was hijacked), but also a really weird thing to get so bent out of shape about. Or take how he once deleted a bunch of Samudran culture in Antica in response to... I don't even remember *what* anymore. He's incredibly volatile. Far too much so to expect to keep him as a citizen in a place like Shireroth for long.

[Andreas the Wise]

So you’re questioning my third premise? Or are you arguing that P2 should be modified to read:
P2. To be a citizen of a micronation you should only need
a. To agree on the major stuff for the nation.
b. The nation to agree with stuff that is major for you.
?

[Ryan]

I find the ganging-up of people to play a prank on anyone rather repugnant. I'd have expected it more ten years ago when most of the participants were still teenagers. But I would not have expected it now. There is plenty of room in this hobby to get your shits and giggles without hurting people.

Shireroth seems to be perpetually immature. It's part of the reason why I've not returned, and why I will continue to remain ex officio in the foreseeable future.

[Shyriath]

and then when they inevitably do get riled up, suddenly act as if it was a terrible idea and something to whip oneself over.

I do this anyway, even outside of Shireroth, so take that under advisement in considering my vote.

In the interests of public disclosure: Yes, I was involved, and yes, I did find it amusing at the time. And even yes, being as I am now, if I had been the target of that kind of prank I believe I would have found it just as amusing once I found out the truth.

Nonetheless, I voted for the not-doing-this-again option because I have, since then, remembered the time before I developed a thicker skin, and the various hurts encountered therein. I have no objection at all to pranks, either individual or collaborative, on people who you know well enough to know that they can take it; but inflicting that kind of thing on people outside that category isn't a good habit to get into, especially since I don't think it works as a skin-thickening mechanism.

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

I had a whole post written but deleted it.

It was fun and only slightly evil, until it went to far and we started pushing to much. Leaving a few bread crumbs for someone, that are on their own innocent and need to be really stretched to make them into something, is one thing. In the end we were just smacking him with blatant hints at something that didn't exist.

At first it was a slightly sophisticated game of cat and mouse, international intrigue kinda stuff. In the end it was just us picking on someone with as much subtly as a man with a sledge hammer hits a 14th century Ming Vase*.

So, being slightly evil; fun and interesting. Ganging up on someone; boring and potentially hurtful.

*This statement not checked for any historical accuracy.

[Demon of Fides]

Everyone here can take a joke. If they take the joke and you keep pushing, that's where it gets repugnant IMHO.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Shireroth seems to be perpetually immature. It's part of the reason why I've not returned, and why I will continue to remain ex officio in the foreseeable future.

Erm, you realize that Antica, where you are a citizen, also participated and was way more into that kind of thing than we were, right?

Anyway, Ari, argument against is from utility, plus the assumption that we should be able to tell who can and can't take a joke. That blog post I wrote on salmon applies here to some degree too.

[Harvey Steffke]

I participated when it was only vague statements designed to make him paranoid. I'm down with that sort of thing. Remember Operation: Banana Peel? Same deal, just that didn't go so well.

But when it became obvious that this was going to go way above and beyond the snide comment phase, and you all got hardcore about screwing the guy, I quickly disassociated myself from the effort. I made a few comments about it being wrong in IRC, but nobody cared.

I do not believe the premise was wrong of just screwing with him a little, or maybe slightly more than a little, but only for a small time. I do believe that how far it went was wrong. And I most strongly believe that everyone who is apologizing is full of BS. You guys LOVED THAT SHIT. You ate it up. You were thinking of ways to make it go farther and be more convincing. None of you cared about the guy you were messing with; it was micronational conspiracy time, baby! Like the old days! But it shows a certain type of character and it showed major signs of the degeneration of Shireroth. Elliot isn't some Hubert that needs to learn the lessons of life. He didn't even do anything wrong.

I didn't write up a big post about why I emigrated Shireroth, because it was important at the time that you feel like you were trimming dead weight so you'd feel better about yourself, but this was a major factor.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Shireroth seems to be perpetually immature. It's part of the reason why I've not returned, and why I will continue to remain ex officio in the foreseeable future.

Erm, you realize that Antica, where you are a citizen, also participated and was way more into that kind of thing than we were, right?

Hm, that might just provide an out for you guys. I mean, the Kezan PMs (which were sent by Chrimigules) *were* the biggest escalation IIRC, and Shirithians had nothing to do with them. Would you agree that it was the Anticans who did all the actually-bad stuff and that the part that Shirithians played in fact was just that of a harmless prankster?

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Would you agree that it was the Anticans who did all the actually-bad stuff and that the part that Shirithians played in fact was just that of a harmless prankster?

Nah, Antica doesn't come out of this looking great either, but that doesn't excuse us. What I hope does excuse us is that, unlike Antica, most of us have admitted we went too far and plan not to do it again, and those of us who didn't have left the country (mostly to Antica).

I'm pretty anti-soul-searching on this. We did something that we thought would be harmless. It wasn't. We have recalibrated our threshold for harmlessness, hopefully enough to not make the same mistake again. Elliot can choose to go or leave. Any extra discussion is pouring salt in old wounds and giving the people who like to come here to insult us yet another opportunity to do so, even though none of them objected at the time.

Yeah, I said it. Ryan, talk to your Antican buddies about their part in this whole thing before you go whining about us. Harvey, the SEP has the post where you say to Malliki's original plan, and I quote, "I like the idea of somehow teaming up with the Anticans to mess with him on a grand scale". On our side, the plan never got out of the snide comment phase - the only ones who ever PMed him were the Anticans. You stopped being interested around the same time we all stopped being interested - when it got boring and when the whole Kezan thing (was that Chris?) went way overboard.

I'm happy to admit I was in the wrong, but I expect others to do the same instead of using it against us while ignoring their own complicity. Or to leave the whole thing alone. Both are good.

[Harvey Steffke]

You ("you" being anyone that did this for more than a day or so) never thought it was harmless. That's what I refuse to believe. It was party time. At least Ari's man enough to admit he has no regrets.

I'd check the SEP myself for more information, but some non-citizens have access to it and some don't, so there's that.

[Harvey Steffke]

I will grant you that you tried, Scott, and I will somehow grant you that you thought it would turn out okay. But, well, I think what you think people want to hear and do and what people really want to hear and do are two very different things.

I just don't understand how a two-nation conspiracy with more than half a dozen participants over at least a week was supposed to not offend the guy. Is it even possible to have a "harmless prank" that goes on that long and with that many people? The only sort of thing I can think of is a situation where the outcome is actually desirable, like a surprise party. Not when the "punchline" is "ha ha, the war is fake but we really were all out to get you all along!"

If everyone had Ari's attitude that Elliot is more than a little crazy and nobody cares if he left the nation since it was bound to happen anyway, then I'd see it. It's a little cruel, but I'd see it. At least that would show you (collectively) knew what you were getting into. But this apologetic thing is just so silly.

(um, this was in reply to a post of Scott's that he has since deleted that said something along the lines of "Why would I start a scheme to drive someone away when I spent my kaisership trying to get people to stay?" Not sure why he deleted it, not really that bad. But some non-citizens can delete posts and some cannot, so there's that.)

[Ari Rahikkala]

Re Scott's deleted post (which I still have in an open browser window here but which I guess I'm not going to quote since Scott had second thoughts about it)... yes, I do believe you would have knowingly done something that would drive someone away, if you happened to also be aware that said someone would ragequit soon enough anyway because Malarbor punched him in a dream or something

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Deleted because although the sentiment that I wouldn't have driven a citizen away was correct, looking back I'm pretty sure Elliot wasn't actually a Shirerithian citizen at the time.

Despite the operation evidently having grown with each retelling, in the end, all Shireroth ended up doing was making and posting in this thread. Everything else was done by foreign nations and individuals without Kaiserial knowledge or approval. The thread was not our finest hour but far from "HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY BELIEVE ANYONE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN OFFENDED BY SUCH A VAST CONSPIRACY" level.

[Malliki Tosha]

Wow, talk about revisionism.

[Ruth]

Erm, you realize that Antica, where you are a citizen, also participated and was way more into that kind of thing than we were, right?
.

Though, only two Anticans (Chris and I) were involved in this charming little prank, while several Shirerithians made poor Elliot/Vasore/Xon the victim of the blackness which fills their hearts and clouds their souls!

[Harvey Steffke]

Clearly, Shireroth wasn't involved. It was merely the vast majority of its citizens, acting individually without approval on the same sort of strategy by sheer coinicence, agreeing to mess with a known unstable guy in a completely friendly and totally not at all mean way despite confirming suspicions that everyone was plotting against him. I don't know what to say anymore about that.

The funny part about all this is how ridiculous Light Blue Octopus was even conceptually. Micronational war died out close to a decade ago. In an age of backups and individual forums on personally owned servers, it wouldn't matter what software people were writing. The whole concept was stupid, but people pushed it as far as they could in order to mess with Elliot, actually suceeded, and are now pretending they didn't even try. What?

[Malliki Tosha]

Yeah, nothing better than to rewrite history. That Vasroe bought Light Blue Octopus only proves what a paranoid person he is.

[AryezturMejorkhor]

I'm so sick and tired of this Blue Octopus shit. It happened months ago. Why do we still have to talk about it?

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Clearly, Shireroth wasn't involved. It was merely the vast majority of its citizens, acting individually without approval on the same sort of strategy by sheer coinicence, agreeing to mess with a known unstable guy in a completely friendly and totally not at all mean way despite confirming suspicions that everyone was plotting against him. I don't know what to say anymore about that.

Look, there's no revisionism. I'm not even saying anything controversial. There were AFAIK only two things vaguely related to this "Light Blue Octopus" thing. There was the thread in Ministry of Military, and there were the Kezan private messages. Shireroth did the thread, and has apologized for it. We had no part in the private messages, which were all Antican AFAIK. There was nothing else I know of.

[Harvey Steffke]

Okay okay

[Demon of Fides]

I'm so sick and tired of this Blue Octopus shit. It happened months ago. Why do we still have to talk about it?

Agreed.

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

I'm so sick and tired of this Blue Octopus shit. It happened months ago. Why do we still have to talk about it?

Agreed.

Indeed. Can we get on with life and deal with being angsty if we even think it's a good idea to do something like this in the future in the future? Seriously, Is this arguement serving ANY purpose other then antagonizing each other try not to be at fault for the whole thing. We all fucked up. We're all covered in the same layer of shit, no one smells nicer then anyone else. Let's move on shall we?

[Jonas]

Agreed. What's done is done.

We all fucked up. We're all covered in the same layer of shit, no one smells nicer then anyone else. Let's move on shall we?

Not me. I didn't know anything of it. I'm clean! CLEAN, I tell you!

OR AM I NOT?