The Flag - A completely Consequential Poll

[Andreas the Wise]

Time for people with opinions to opinionate those of us without one. The vote got to the Landsraad. Now how should I vote?

Also, in the time honoured tradition of buying renewed interest by exchanging real yellow-pieces-of-metal; I'm open to cash donations to change my mind. If you make a donation and somebody else makes a larger donation in the opposite direction, I won't return your donation. Just saying

[Malliki Tosha]

Wtf? It passed 7-2. Should tell you something.

[Kaiser Ikol II]

Malliki - as Harvey mentioned, the Front Gate vote wasn't a vote on a flag, it was a vote on a vote on a flag, and voting "no" on it would have been saying "We shouldn't be allowed to debate this issue" and therefore kind of petty.

I'll stay out of this poll.

[Andreas the Wise]

Wtf? It passed 7-2. Should tell you something.

It would have if it hadn't been rushed through several times, had slightly weird changing totals and, as I said in the Landsraad, I don't know if it's "the majority want a vote" or "the majority want the old flag back" or "we haven't even had the majority vote yet."

Considering the last vote was accused of having strange dealings with Goldshire etc, and some people considered the matter 'not sorted' then and I want the matter to be finally and firmly sorted after this vote, I want to do this properly. So I'm not going to rush into voting on this - I want to be firmly sure of the majority opinion, since I don't have a strong one either way and I'm most probably going to be blamed for what happens with the flag hereafter. And if people want to express their opinion with money, that's an added bonus.

[Jacobus Loki]

I really don't care which version of the old flag. but the old flag!

[Kaiser Ikol II]

I do want to make a complaint about something. When people voted no on the Front Gate vote, they were shushed and told that it was just a vote to have it go to the Landsraad, and so they should vote yes whether they wanted the flag changed or not.

...and then when it got to the Landsraad, Erik started talking about how the vote in the Front Gate was about people's opinions on the flag itself, and that anyone who voted yes on it should be interpreted as supporting the act.

I don't really care which way we do things, but it's dishonest to change from one to the other whenever it suits people's purposes. So Landsraad, please clarify exactly which way Front Gate votes are to be cast before a similar issue comes up again.

[Erik Mortis]

I just said I didn't want a huge debate. And I QUOTE!

And I ask that we not make this a heated debate, let's just have a vote of it and move on.

That's all I said on the matter. I figure people wouldn't vote for it if they didn't want it to pass. If I had been in a position to vote. I would have voted no if I didn't want it to pass. Why even give it the chance?

But I do warn that a poll like this can be easily tricked, misled or broken by folk voting who shouldn't.

But as it's 6-3 for the new flag... (and if you account for another 3 for the old flag, but CJ's version... it's 9-3 for the old one, in some form...) I'll keep quiet.

And why do people keep saying the vote was rushed.. 10 people voted! Add the 3 that can't.. and that's 13 people. That's the entire active population of Shireroth.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

I figure people wouldn't vote for it if they didn't want it to pass.

Then you would have claimed that the measure had unanimous support because it was allowed to pass unopposed. If only three people had voted in favour would you have withdrawn it? Who died and allowed you to start dictating logic?

[Erik Mortis]

But.. it was opposed. And based on the comments people made when they voted. It didn't strike me as people voting for a vote. But people voting to the vote so it could be passed.

[Kaiser Ikol II]

Wasn't talking about you re: the thread - I was mostly talking about Harvey's "it's not a vote for a flag, it's a vote to do a vote for a flag [so] voting no on this seems kind of silly and petty."

I don't think the Front Gate vote was rushed, but I find it deliciously ironic that other people do, considering I took almost a month to conduct the original flag change vote and people still tried to accuse me of rushing it or doing it wrong.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Exactly - this entire episode has been one of unprincipled partisanship by Erik in pursuit of the restoration one of his own flawed creations for which he is inexplicably nostalgic.

[Kaiser Ikol II]

Normally I'd agree with you, but old flag seems to be winning 7-3 or 10-3 depending on how you'd count it.

I have no idea what happened between the time the new flag won big last time and now, but apparently something did.

[Jonas]

And why do people keep saying the vote was rushed.. 10 people voted! Add the 3 that can't.. and that's 13 people. That's the entire active population of Shireroth.

I hadn't even voted yet...

[Malliki Tosha]

And this poll is atm 10-4 in favor of some version of the old flag.

[Erik Mortis]

Yes you did Jonas. Or do you mean the poll?

[Jonas]

Yes you did Jonas. Or do you mean the poll?

The poll.

[Andreas the Wise]

It was done in three days. That's rushed, as far as I'm concerned. Timed Democracy allows at least five for an indeterminate number of the population to cast a vote.

[Malliki Tosha]

Still, the numbers are pretty similar. I have no idea what Timed Democracy is.

[Andreas the Wise]

If the numbers end up similar, that's fine, then I know that this wasn't done badly.

[Harvey Steffke]

It was done in three days. That's rushed, as far as I'm concerned. Timed Democracy allows at least five for an indeterminate number of the population to cast a vote.

There's nothing statistically valid about five days (though that might be an interesting study) - it's simply the number I chose in Nelaga because of micronationalists having more real life obligations. We've used three days in the past, we've used a week. The original first draft was actually having all votes end a specific time of night (say, 10 PM EST) after at least 48 hours have passed, so votes would actually last longer if they were started late at night and shorter if they were started in the afternoon.

[Andreas the Wise]

I know five days isn't some historically significant number; but I believe it's an appropriate number to deal with real life stuff.

[Erik Mortis]

Shireroth uses 4 days. I don't like any longer than that myself. We have emissaries to fill the gap if one occurs.

[Andreas the Wise]

The offer to express the strength of your views economically is hereby withdrawn, because too many people can't handle the idea of qualitative strength of views in a nation which isn't a democracy.

The poll remains completely consequential.

[Malliki Tosha]

Oh just vote already. The only one dragging this out is you.

[Andreas the Wise]

If I have one more person telling me to vote I'll vote NAY out of spite/to make the Kaiser happy. It's getting annoying. I'm going to give up on trying to vote in the national interest after this because it's not worth the bother of spending my time thinking through it. If you wanted rushed legislation you should have removed me from the Landsraad when you had the chance, instead of removing Jake. At least he voted like a Shirithian noble is meant apparently meant to vote - expressing his opinion quickly and not worrying about what others think .

[Harvey Steffke]

That's... really the wrongest approach possible to take on this whole thing. You'd be screwing the entire country over simply because you can. You might as well resign your position if it's so annoying to have people telling you things you don't want to hear, especially since you're claiming to try to represent the nation as a whole.

[Andreas the Wise]

While that is completely not a helpful thing to say to me when I'm feeling annoyed, you're right. Even if I'm annoyed, I shouldn't threaten to misuse my Landsraad vote. It was also wrong of me to offer the chance to influence this particular vote with money. I apologise for this. I'm sorry for being adversarial when people did not understand the motivation for my actions.

I thank people for helping me make up my mind by voting in this poll; and I thank the Kaiser for understanding what I've been doing and saying. It's very nifty to have another person around who gets my wilder leaps of rationality and utilitarianism.

[Kaiser Ikol II]

If I have one more person telling me to vote I'll vote NAY out of spite/to make the Kaiser happy.

Although I have an aesthetic preference for the current flag, right now I think I'd rather have this issue settled once and for all, even if it means changing back to the old one.

[Jacobus Loki]

At least he voted like a Shirithian noble is meant apparently meant to vote - expressing his opinion quickly and not worrying about what others think.

Thanks, I guess......