Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

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Ari Rahikkala
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Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Ari Rahikkala »

Andreas... it's a good thing you came first in the alphabet, because you're one of the Shirithians I find the least fault with. I mean, you're a Christian - that's not a problem... though it *is* a slight problem that you use the annoying standard arguments that take a lot of work educating the other guy to refute. Fortunately those discussions are very rare in these parts and you don't create them yourself. Some people seem to call you egotistical, but as far as I can tell, you channel that into nice, productive pursuits like title gathering ( ;) ), so I don't see how it is a problem.

Ari, you might be unpredictable (in a bad way), weird (also in a bad way) and you mightn't think much of other people's feelings before you speak... fortunately you're antisocial enough that it's usually not a problem. Being the kind of person who'll suddenly cuss out half of his friends without any visible provocation *would* be a problem... *if* you had a lot of close friends in the first place. On the other hand, though, you're hurting *yourself* big time by being a huge lazy bastard. Things like leaving Malarbor showing a temporary message for a week (possibly to be longer) - that's small potatoes compared to your incredible capability of procrastination when it comes to things that actually matter in your life. Pursuits that other people would consider worthless are above you because you can't bring yourself out of sitting on reddit all day to do things a trained chimpanzee could do.

Corey: Icebreaker put it pretty well when we were discussing various micronationalists on #etd once (you weren't present)... You have uninformed opinions and unwarranted self-importance. As an example from politics, you hate the US for not being liberal enough and plan to move away. Well, the idea's certainly consistent, but let's just see you actually act on it. Also, whether the opinions you hold and the actions you take are correct or not, you sometimes toss around incredibly faulty justifications for them. For instance, while I agree with you on removing the Loki amendments from the Charter, your justification that this didn't cause you to break your promise to Jake not to remove those amendments because "the Landsraad did it, not me" is just wrong. Oh, and also, whatever the reason why you loathe Andreas so much is, it's probably a bad one.

dr-spangle: I don't have much to say about you as a person. You used to be pretty bad, but #etd has taught you a lot about how to awesome ;). You're only in this list because I absolutely hate the way you call things "illegal" in the MCS - for reasons I've already explained in person...

Erik: I have a bit of a special problem with you, because I'm often unnecessarily cryptic, and you are usually more unwilling to interpret me than others. That's all just between you and me, though. What I really find to be a problem with you is... you come across situations and don't suppress or withhold your emotional response long enough to actually analyse what's going on. You let your overprotective streak take the wheel too often. At least, that's how I believe you manage to get angry about the stuff that goes on in Shireroth when you're around. People are complex creatures of intent and deception, and you have a very fine mind that's able to grasp a decent amount of computer science (though I do think Haskell would blow your mind ;) ) - you should have that, not your limbic system, take responsibility of your emotions. Oh, and you pretend to know all about what makes Shireroth tick. While I agree with you on the Jake amendments, I do believe you have much less of a clear idea what makes Shireroth a fun place to be and a community than you think :).

Icebreaker: I wish I had the same problem with you as I have with Scott (see bottom of post). That way I could always just ignore you when you're being judgmental or annoying. Considering what you've said about yourself, I'd probably be interpreting you more accurately. Anyway, misguided and shortsighted as some of the things I've done about my life might have been, I mostly just wish you'd stop calling them emo. It makes me emo when you do that, you see. For instance, once you read this post, you probably should consider carefully just what adjectives could rightfully be applied to it :). (who am I kidding, you'll call it emo anyway. If not for any other reason, then for this last remark.)

Jake: I can't really say much about you because there's so much about you that I don't understand at all. The generation gap's pretty wide sometimes. You easily fooled me into believing you were actually distraught back when you were having those big arguments with Hesam, even though you were actually just having fun. Still, there's one thing about you that I really hate. To mix metaphors, you play the victim card at a hair trigger, placing yourself as the "little guy" fighting "the man". I really don't appreciate it when you try to paint Erik as the big guy who everyone listens to here because he's the founder (I hate it even more, btw, when Corey actually tries to justify something by "Erik said it"). Not so much because of what it means to Erik, but because it's certainly disrespectful to the rest of us, who hold our opinions for what we consider to be good reasons (reasons which usually do *not* include "Erik said it").

Jess: Well, you're young. It's a package deal, you might have super healing and learning powers but you're also incompetent and tactless. Can't really hold it against you, though, when one can see you getting better every day (no, you're not ready for Kaisership yet). Carry on, sir :)

Jonas: Mostly, I'm weirded out by your political opinions. How does being a Belgian with enlightened-ish friends from around the world go together with being a neocon anyway? I'd like to hear your life story ;). That aside, I kinda want to see you on the Kaiser's throne one day, but you do need to mellow down first. You know, even though most conflict in Shireroth is fake anyway (you can obviously see that considering how little you seem to mind conflict here anyway), you could try mediating rather than instigating it sometime regardless. (actually you seem to be getting there - after the initial signing of Jake's amendments your disinterest didn't exactly fan the flames - it was mostly Erik and me, both previous Kaisers, who were really making a big deal out of it)

Max: You'd probably get offended if you weren't included in this list.

Mike: You are annoying on IRC.

Scott: I can't really be the judge of you. I've known you for too long and considered you an enormously nifty person for pretty much all of that time, so I interpret pretty much anything you say in the best possible light. Still... you sure do hold your grudges like a vacuum flask (if Hesam hadn't pointed that habit out, btw, I'd probably have just interpreted that post as you being playfully antagonistic, kinda in a Finland vs. Sweden way). Oh, and it annoys the hell out of people when you try to reason them out of positions they weren't reasoned into in the first place (not referring to religion here, rather things like, say, ethanol), but... yeah, I guess I'm a fan, because it seems to me that that's more of a problem with people than a problem with you.

Everyone else: You don't post in Shireroth or talk on IRC channels where I'm on enough :(

Everyone: I love you guys. Wouldn't spend so much of my time here if I didn't. I haven't written a post about how much I like you guys because the 60000 character limit would make detailing even why I love any single Shirithian impossible in a one post. I'll keep loving you even if you don't do anything about fixing the things I talked about in this post - in fact, I don't expect you to. Feedback from one guy is just one channel of information to learn about yourself.

Oh, and no, I'm not leaving, or angry, or anything like that. It's just that I was skiing, and skiing makes my brain wonky :(
No-one should be without a parasol, Sirocco.

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Icebreaker
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Icebreaker »

*APPROVES

LET THE AIDS GRENADES FLY!!!

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Maksym Hadjimehmetov
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Maksym Hadjimehmetov »

Not controversial enough, mate- I'd agree with 75% of what you say there, even if most of it was probably in a slightly annoyed mood which you now regret, especially after seeing how suprisingly well some people can take constructive criticism here. Shireroth wouldn't be the same without the clash of personalities and political opinions which makes me want to post here more and more.
We always have plenty to talk about politically- in RL and in Shiereithan terms- my unwarranted Zionism and Liberalism (yes, the two things can coexist) versus Jeremy's slightly mindless Anglo-Conservatism... and then there's Ardy's hatred of most things (animate or inanimate) which can be maimed brutally by a scimitar or won't buy him a pint. :p
Max: You'd probably get offended if you weren't included in this list.
This is true. Hey... I'm like that. Thankyou.
Anyway, here's to Shireroth and all the manic personalities which make it.
*raises glass*
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Ari Rahikkala
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Ari Rahikkala »

(nope, not feeling very regretful yet)
No-one should be without a parasol, Sirocco.

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b3n|<3r|\|
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by b3n|<3r|\| »

Ari, I do not find fault with your weirdness esp. when it is not in a good way because I have not met you IRL. I think weirdness over the internet is as faulty as normalcy over the internet. If there is ever a Babkhan Meet or a ShireCon or a general migration to Finland, I want to get very drunk and have a discussion with you and see what is what. However, (this post has immediately lost a grasp on the spirit of the thread hasn't it?) that said I think you (hahahaha!) could larn from the expression, "Silence is more profitable than abundance of speech." Or in irc terms:

<benkern> @ari: stfu
Vilhelm von Benkern - The Dolphin-...Count
:: Formerly just "benkern"
:: Rook Sentry of the Order of the Vorpal Blade
:: Count of Mar Sara IIRC
:: Former Baron of Absentia AFAIK, before that Baron of Vorpmadal TBH; also Former Duke of Yardistan IMHO
:: Dux Emeritus of the Order of Mischievous Intent

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Maksym Hadjimehmetov
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Maksym Hadjimehmetov »

I love threads like this... cheers, Ari. :D

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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Nathan of Natopia »

Icebreaker wrote:*APPROVES

LET THE AIDS GRENADES FLY!!!
Are those grenades filled with HIV infected blood... or grenades filled with little HIV infected gay men that have unprotected sex with you on impact?

Coz only one of those sounds like fun.
Nathan,
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Natopian Representative to the Small Commonwealth,
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Chrimigules
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Chrimigules »

Sager?
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Kaiser Reynardine I
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Kaiser Reynardine I »

Ari Rahikkala wrote:Corey: Icebreaker put it pretty well when we were discussing various micronationalists on #etd once (you weren't present)... You have uninformed opinions and unwarranted self-importance.
Thank you! :thumbsup

First up: "As an example from politics, you hate the US for not being liberal enough and plan to move away. Well, the idea's certainly consistent, but let's just see you actually act on it."

I don't quite understand the "act on it" part. Do you want me to be taking an active role in US politics or do you want me to actually do my moving? I do actually have decent plans to move away after I'm done with my undergraduate work. But understand that this is still three and a half years off. I can't just up and leave, despite what all of you say. It just doesn't work that way.

Next: "For instance, while I agree with you on removing the Loki amendments from the Charter, your justification that this didn't cause you to break your promise to Jake not to remove those amendments because "the Landsraad did it, not me" is just wrong."

First, he said don't undo what he had done right away. I managed to keep them in there long enough to save myself from enough flak from Jake. He didn't seem too upset at my removing them, anyway. It was also interesting experimenting with the "Landsraad fiddling with the Charter" concept. I probably won't do that again, the Landsraad was very lazy until Nathan became Prætor. ;)

Next again: "Oh, and also, whatever the reason why you loathe Andreas so much is, it's probably a bad one."[/i:iviiyny]

Oh I do enjoy so much your judging things you have absolutely zero chance of knowing...

Finally: "I hate it even more, btw, when Corey actually tries to justify something by "Erik said it""

I don't think I've ever used that as a serious argument, save when Erik was arbiter ruling on the meaning of a clause that he actually wrote, in which case I find it quite justifiable.

I look forward to seeing if anyone addresses any of these. :)

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Maksym Hadjimehmetov
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Maksym Hadjimehmetov »

I can answer all of those... :document

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Kaiser Reynardine I
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Kaiser Reynardine I »

Hey! He challenged my honor! I must defend it!

Also, I have to see if these are really good reason, because then it'll give me an excuse to gtfo out of being Kaiser already.

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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by b3n|<3r|\| »

Yes! For your honour! FOR PONY!!
Vilhelm von Benkern - The Dolphin-...Count
:: Formerly just "benkern"
:: Rook Sentry of the Order of the Vorpal Blade
:: Count of Mar Sara IIRC
:: Former Baron of Absentia AFAIK, before that Baron of Vorpmadal TBH; also Former Duke of Yardistan IMHO
:: Dux Emeritus of the Order of Mischievous Intent

It takes moo to mango!

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Maksym Hadjimehmetov
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Maksym Hadjimehmetov »

Also, I have to see if these are really good reason, because then it'll give me an excuse to gtfo out of being Kaiser already.
:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

And you know who to nominate as successor, don't you?
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Kaiser Reynardine I
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Kaiser Reynardine I »

Having picked that out, you deserve it! :kaiser

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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Scott of Hyperborea »

Ari, you can't even write a post about your controversial criticisms of people without most of them being mainly nice things. Andreas is "one of the people I find the least fault with", Spangle is "awesome", Jess is "getting better every day", Jonas "I want to see on the Kaiser's throne some day", Scott is "an enormously nifty person". You're not exactly the reincarnation of Rob Gresham here.

The thing is, I really do think you were trying as hard as you could to say bad things about people. You're just constitutionally incapable of it. And that is why we love you.

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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Erik Mortis »

"I do believe you have much less of a clear idea what makes Shireroth a fun place to be and a community than you think :)."

I never said I knew what made it a fun place.. (I do.. and that's not my goal) I say I know how to deal with making the government work, and last.

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Kaiser Reynardine I
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Kaiser Reynardine I »

Scott of Hyperborea wrote:The thing is, I really do think you were trying as hard as you could to say bad things about people. You're just constitutionally incapable of it. And that is why we love you.
He was quite capable of saying bad things about me! :document

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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Erik Mortis »

No one can say bad things about you better then you, Corey...

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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Kaiser Reynardine I »

Because I know me best! :kaiser

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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Andreas the Wise »

Scott of Hyperborea wrote:Ari, you can't even write a post about your controversial criticisms of people without most of them being mainly nice things. Andreas is "one of the people I find the least fault with", Spangle is "awesome", Jess is "getting better every day", Jonas "I want to see on the Kaiser's throne some day", Scott is "an enormously nifty person". You're not exactly the reincarnation of Rob Gresham here.

The thing is, I really do think you were trying as hard as you could to say bad things about people. You're just constitutionally incapable of it. And that is why we love you.
I thought his comments about me were fairly accurate, though I'm trying to cut down on standard responses to arguments. If it's something I know a lot about (say, Salvation by Grace) I'll give you a carefully reasoned response, but if it's something I kinda support but don't know too much about, I'll revert to basic arguments. My new years resolution is to avoid responding angrily to unreasonable comments about Christianity or magic in micronationalism. I'll see how long that lasts :knife
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Maksym Hadjimehmetov »

Oooh... I sense London bendy-bus debate coming this way!

Watch out, Andreas!

WHOOSH

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...phew, it narrowly missed you!

*waits for the impending rant* :smashy
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Erik Mortis »

That bus is Awesome!

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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by b3n|<3r|\| »

They look quaint at best on the outside and are a menace that needs to be extinguished.
Vilhelm von Benkern - The Dolphin-...Count
:: Formerly just "benkern"
:: Rook Sentry of the Order of the Vorpal Blade
:: Count of Mar Sara IIRC
:: Former Baron of Absentia AFAIK, before that Baron of Vorpmadal TBH; also Former Duke of Yardistan IMHO
:: Dux Emeritus of the Order of Mischievous Intent

It takes moo to mango!

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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Erik Mortis »

I meant the ad.

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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Maksym Hadjimehmetov »

I'm religious and I support the atheist bus ad campaign in London...
I think it's good that atheists are getting their point of view across and the rest of us are realising that they have a right to air their beliefs as well.
Atheist prosthelytising only gets unreasonable when they use the whole 'anybody who's religious is inherently stupid' line, which is insulting and not constructive.

Hooray for atheist bendy buses, I say!
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Scott of Hyperborea »

Hmmm...

On the one hand, I usually oppose advertising campaigns that try to convince people of anything using short slogans. If people really do change their fundamental beliefs based on things like a sign saying "There's probably no God", or one like the sign saying "Jesus is Lord" on the street next to my apartment, or even the ones saying "Vote yes on Proposition 15!"...then those people don't deserve to have correct opinions. If they don't, then it's insulting, a waste of money, and needlessly confrontational to have signs up about them.

On the other hand, I may be prepared to make an exception in this case, because I've been led to understand the problem with atheists is that there are a whole bunch of them, but they feel too intimidated and alone to admit it. Having bus signs about atheism might help more people realize that atheism is mainstream and acceptable and make them less afraid to tell people their honest beliefs, which could be a useful thing to do.

But I think what really does it for me is the word "probably". There's something incredibly endearing and encouraging about any organization that puts "probably" in a statement like that. Can you imagine a church sign that says "Jesus is probably Lord"? Or a political sign saying "Obama: probably bringing change to America!" It's so honest! Advertising the under-used ability to believe things with less than 100% certainty is worth whatever they paid for those signs right there.

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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Andreas the Wise »

America and Ireland must be very, very different places to Australia. I wouldn't call atheists in Australia a minority, or feeling to intimidated or alone to admit it. I'd say it's a very real problem that a lot of Christians feel too intimidated or alone to admit it, but atheists? Most people seem to be atheists, or at least agnostic.
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I believe that I am a Christian

Post by Austi_Scot »

I believe that I am a Christian - how is that to be tested?

Shall it be tested by a list of quesons that I answer or a look at selected actions that I have taken in my lifetime? Shall there be a short list of beliefs that must be held in order to be considered a Christian? Shall we agree on core Christian beliefs?

What if all people don´t agree on which test, which list of questions, which list of beliefs? What if I understand and believe one or two or three, or even more doctrines differently than another who believes he/she is also a Christian? What if we don´t see eye to eye on those core Christian beliefs, or maybe even what are the core beliefs?

I am fine with you deciding in any fashion you choose whether or not I´m a Christian. I have decided that I am not worthy to be forgiven, to be a Christian nor to go to Heaven. I accept it all as a free gift mercifully given to me.

For me, this is what I like -
You have the liberty to tell me what you think I believe and why you think I´m wrong or right.

Please, if you are of a different belief, have the compassion to attempt to convince me that I am mistaken and you are correct. I want to hear what you have to say and why you believe whatever it is you believe.

If you are also Christian, please have the respect to tell me so. Then please have the respect necessary to do at least two things more. Speak to me in private when you believe I have sinned, perhaps you may find I am accepting to correction. Then please also feel the freedom to discuss with me any and all aspects of your and my understanding of Christianity, perhaps you´ll find I´m teachable.

In addition, the one thing I like the most is for the above to be civil and mutual.
Austi Scot
Former Citizen

May Kaiser Mises I rule soon.
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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Scott of Hyperborea »

EDIT: This post is addressed to Andreas. Austi crossposted before I could finish posting this

I think you've observed correctly but missed the point.

According to surveys where they go around and ask people, only 10% of Americans say they're atheists compared to about 80% who say they're Christian (and to look up the other countries you mention, in Ireland ist vs. 92.3% Christian, and in Australia it's 18.7% atheist vs. 63.9% Christian)(source: Wikipedia).

I agree with your observation that there seem to be a lot of people who aren't very serious Christians. I would even agree with your observation that it's probably pretty intimidating to be a very serious Christian and you must get called a crazy fundamentalist (or something) a lot. But most of the people calling you that still consider themselves Christians, still go to church occasionally, and still base many of their beliefs about morality, politics, and philosophy on religious stuff. A bunch more will say they oppose organized religion, but they think there's a "higher power" or "a spiritual force" or that they pity people who think there's nothing above humanity, or something vague like that. Most people just don't consider out and out saying "HEY I AM AN ATHEIST!" an option, because they think atheists are scary people who dress in black and believe nothing is true and everything is permissible and so on. I've even heard of a few people who think "atheist" is a fancy word for "satanist" (yes, they were American).

There was a very interesting survey recently among Americans about which groups you absolutely would NOT vote for for President, no matter how good a candidate there was. Only five percent of people said they would never vote for a black person. Forty percent of people said they would never vote for a gay person. And the highest number of all, an overwhelming fifty three percent of people, said they would never vote for an atheist no matter how good a candidate ze was. I don't know the numbers in Australia or Britain, but I bet they're similar.

There are 535 people in the US Congress, of whom exactly one (Pete Stark) admits to being an atheist. That's fewer atheists than there are Muslims, Buddhists, or Jews. I just read today about a rumor that 22 members of Congress secretly admitted to being atheist but requested that their names not be released for fear of a backlash; I don't know if it's true.

President Bush (not the current one, the early 90s one) once said that he didn't think atheists should be allowed to be United States citizens; luckily, it wasn't his choice.

I don't know nearly as much about the situation in Australia, but I did hear that they tried the same bus ad stunt there and no one would let them put ads up.

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Re: Well, I *did* name it the Shrine of Controversy...

Post by Andreas the Wise »

Sorry then. Must be in Australia that I just had more vocal atheist friends and most people are agnostics. How odd ... when you're a Christian, you lump the agnostics with the atheists, and when you're an atheist, you lump the agnostics with the Christians. Nobody seems to like these agnostics ... :confused

@ Austi - I'm a Christian too. I'd say there are certain core beliefs necessary, but you seem to have got it with accepting it all as a free gift. :jadie
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Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy

And references may be made to Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn (a Nelagan Micron of undisclosed purpose).

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