Danger, Will Robinson! Also, a counterproposal.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Yeah, I know. Not exactly a high note to start on, but...

19:29 <@dr-spangle> erik is right
19:29 <@dr-spangle> "Just another way to anger the MCS...."
19:31 <@ari> How? What's the problem with it?
19:32 <@dr-spangle> it's underhand
19:36 <@ari> I don't see how.
19:37 <@dr-spangle> putting a rule in place and then sneaking past it
19:50 <@dr-spangle> anyway
19:50 <@dr-spangle> it still violates your rules
19:51 <@dr-spangle> it's still a part of shireroth that's claiming land

(http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1296&start=15)

shireroth.

drop your crazy scheme, or you are going to push a lot of people over the edge and Erik's forebodings will become true.

So... well, yeah. Erik *was* right*. For what it's worth, the purpose that I saw in this crazy scheme was to see how other Batavians than Jonas would function in Shireroth, not to do a landgrab, but if it seems like a landgrab to the world, we don't really have a choice other than to drop it... and if we're going to drop it, we should do it gracefully, simply looking at the world sees us as, and speaking nothing of these plans anymore...



UNLESS!

Maybe it's time for Shireroth to give something back to Batavia for a change. I'm willing to join the Vrystaat as a founding member, given a few arrangements:

- Maraguo Vrystaat is founded as an independent state subject *neither* to the laws of Shireroth or Batavia, except laws specifically created by the Commonwealth of Batavia to apply to it. However...
- it will be English-speaking, and all of the laws it's subject to will have to be translated to English
- the forum will be hosted on batavie.nl
- I will have at least a chance of having a position of some authority in it. How about this: Jonas, you get yourself appointed Governor-General. We do some light recruiting inside Shireroth and Batavia to see who's interested, and unless other people eager for leadership show up, I'll take the role of the "local" leader - I'm going to make some suggestions in the government thread about what to call this. (of course the best choice for leader would be someone who actually participated in the recwar where the island was won - so I don't really have much of a claim to the throne here...)
- citizenship in the Vrystaat will obviously mean citizenship in the Commonwealth of Batavia, and be completely separate from Shirithian citizenship

In essence, what I want to do is throw away the original plan and simply replace it with a wholly Batavian project that at least one Shirithian just happens to be personally involved in. It gets us the nifty things we set out to create, and has the added benefit that it probably won't make the world complain about Shirithian landgrabs.

[Jonas]

Ow
But I don't see why they would forbid us to use the Shirithian forum. It's just not very easy for Anglophones to use the Dutch, Batavian forum.
Instead, we don't use the Landsraad as legislative power. Only our own parliament.
And we chose, because of historical and cultural reasons the Batavian King and Shirithian Kaiser as Head of State (that was my main reason from the beginning).

They can't force us to use another forum, because it's Shirithian! I know Jeroen will complain about 'again' a new forum on the Batavian forum.

If we have our own parliament and our own head of governement, then they have nothing to say about it. And it's not like we make a copy of Shireroth, I want to get some Batavian ideas in it too when it's working well.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

That will exclude all Shirerithians who already have 3 citizenships... but don't worry, I hadn't the intention to support this craziness anyway.

[Jonas]

That will exclude all Shirerithians who already have 3 citizenships... but don't worry, I hadn't the intention to support this craziness anyway.

Ow, yes. You will! In some way

[Ari Rahikkala]

Ow
But I don't see why they would forbid us to use the Shirithian forum. It's just not very easy for Anglophones to use the Dutch, Batavian forum.

I'm afraid it doesn't matter what legal decisions we make, really - the way micronationalism works, whoever owns the forum owns the state. Consider the three choices we have:

- hosted in Shireroth: Easy for Shirithians, somewhat difficult for Batavians, and everyone will consider it to be de facto part of Shireroth
- independently hosted: Somewhat difficult for everyone, will be viewed as independent... and will almost certainly die out very soon unless we do extraordinary things to get it off the ground (and I am not planning to do extraordinary things)
- hosted in Batavia: Easy for Batavians, prohibitively difficult for some Shirithians, and everyone will consider it to be de facto part of Batavia

It's a trilemma - none of the options are very favourable... however, we simply can't choose option 1 for the sake of Shireroth's integrity on the intermicronational arena, and we also can't choose option 2 unless we intend to become micronational superheroes. Yes, option 3 sucks, but it's for a good cause. I'm sure that you can arrange it in a way that does not annoy anyone too much. Make it a subforum of Ingelheim, there's space there

Instead, we don't use the Landsraad as legislative power. Only our own parliament.

Sounds good...

And we chose, because of historical and cultural reasons the Batavian King and Shirithian Kaiser as Head of State (that was my main reason from the beginning).

Well, they're only heads of state... the only people who'd ever have a problem with that are the MCS, and I don't think their rules can handle a situation where a nation shares two separate heads of state with different nations

That will exclude all Shirerithians who already have 3 citizenships... but don't worry, I hadn't the intention to support this craziness anyway.

Depending on how Shirithian-natured it ends up, who knows! We might just convince the Landsraad to provide a special dispensation from citizenship rules... but that's a story for another day.

[Jonas]

Grmbl. Stupid MCS
Aragon is also on the Batavian forum, but it's semi-independent from Batavia.
There is much support from the Batavians to place it here. The MCS mustn't interfere in this cases. It's not like Batavia hasn't anything to do with it, their will be more then enough influence. This is the best forum to develop the culture too.

We will see. We chose after all what happens with our territory.
Weird that in the Dutch Sector it's normal that we recognise a nation as independent, even if it's on another nation forum. And in the English sector this doesn't happen...


We will see. First claiming the land. In the meanwhile we can work here, so Jeroen doesn't get angry because he needs to make a new forum.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

First claiming the land. In the meanwhile we can work here, so Jeroen doesn't get angry because he needs to make a new forum.

The MCS works by distributing land to nations that deserve/need it, so claiming land before the state is actually set up might prove somewhat controversial.

[Jonas]

The MCS works by distributing land to nations that deserve/need it, so claiming land before the state is actually set up might prove somewhat controversial.

I meant claiming land for Batavia, afterwards it can get divided. If I'm not wrong, Spangle did the same with the CIS (land to divide under future, new states).

We can sign a treaty with Shireroth where in we declare we (Maraguo) are an independent state in the Commonwealth but because of better chance of better cultural development (and it's easier for Anglophones) we chosed to place a State on the Shirithian forum (and it isn't even a lie!), what the great Shireroth approved!

[Jess]

I'd like to join, but that Tri-Citizenship law!

Unless!

The Kaiser could grant people a "exemption" to be in Maraguo!

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Suppose Maraguo had no citizenship requirement and that you only had to be 'resident' to participate?

[Erik Mortis]

How we are just being underhanded with Shireroth law...

And.. wow.. people are kinda listening to my warnings...

[Jess]

Shhh

[Andreas the Wise]

The way I see it (in terms of the head of state laws) is that there's a difference between being the nominal head of state, and being the leader. Like we may nominally have the Kaiser and Batavian King as head of state, but since it's a quasi separate nation, the actual leader is the proper head of state. Of course, that really doesn't matter because the only application of the Head of State rule is that land must be marked in the same colour ... and it's going to be marked as Batavian land anyway ....

As for on the forums ... there is a strong argument for putting on someone else's forum rather than a separate one. Confer how the Gralus forum is not getting many posts, or Chelkran Kesh now it's separate from Toketi ...

[Jacobus Loki]

I'm in. Let me know where.

Anywho, it's time to reform the citizenship laws as they relate to Babkha, Batavia, and other friendly nations...(sauce for the Kaiser, etc.)

[Erik Mortis]

I personally oppose changes to the Tri-cit law.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Suppose Maraguo had no citizenship requirement and that you only had to be 'resident' to participate?

[Ari Rahikkala]

Suppose Maraguo had no citizenship requirement and that you only had to be 'resident' to participate?

That's the first thing I've heard during this whole thing that smacks of underhanded right away even to me... and I don't mean it in a good way here

[b3n|<3r|\|]

What would the difference be if we were to "hang around", post, chat, discuss goings on, enjoy positions of ministerial and administrational authority whether we were citizens or not?

[Andreas the Wise]

I do that. Like in Toketi, they say I'm not primarily Toketian, so I don't get to be a noble, but I still hang around and help contribute to the country ...

[Liam conToketi]

...Sorta...I try to prevent it as much as possible.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Suppose Maraguo had no citizenship requirement and that you only had to be 'resident' to participate?

That's the first thing I've heard during this whole thing that smacks of underhanded right away even to me... and I don't mean it in a good way here

Well yeah, but we're scraping the barrel here, and, after all, it worked for Puritania didn't it (until Bahram tried to have himself elected God-Emperor).

[Erik Mortis]

"citizens of Shireroth are residents of a Duchy" (not actual quote) but the Lawbook prohibits the resident idea, that is how you are attaching it to Shireroth. And I as arbiter would likely judge it to be a citizenship, by spirit of the law, if you used that to get around tri-cit.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

If you will persist then perhaps a review of the Triple Citizenship law would be in order - either an extension to 4 citizenships or the inclusion of a list of "Friends of Shireroth" in which Shirerithians can have citizenship without it counting towards their three limit.

[Jess]

Or unlimited citizenships on the "Friends List!"


YEY FOR FRIENDS!

*HUGS BABKHAN!*


ew......

[Harald of Froyalan]

Or simply make a provision that Citizenship in Maraguo does not count towards the Tri-Cit ban just like in the Centerflying Treaty.

[Jess]

Maybe...

[Liam conToketi]

Well yeah, but we're scraping the barrel here, and, after all, it worked for Puritania didn't it (until Bahram tried to have himself elected God-Emperor).

It's not working well for me now either...

Anyway, I support the Tri-cit law, and think there should be no circumventing of this law. It makes perfect sense...

[Jonas]

If we would chose to be a feudal state citizenship is de facto and de jure not needed to get a job as Count or Baron.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Anyway, I support the Tri-cit law, and think there should be no circumventing of this law. It makes perfect sense...

It is not a question of the sense behind the law - I don't think there are many if any who disagree with the basic premise - however when situations like this (bizarre non-satellite state thing) arise, and Shirerithians already at the boundary of the Tri-Cit law want to support a mostly Shirerithian endeavour, must we be forced to sacrifice participation in another community just to be a part of the exploration a new cultural horizon of Shireroth?

[Jess]

Hell Yes Benkern! I'm so glad your my duke, cause if you wouldnt, I would have to puke!