Iskander Mirkdale has stated his intention to bring the issue of the current rebellion before the Council, and I agree that it must come here eventually. Therefore, in accordance with Article 2, Rule 1, stating:
1) Any Member may propose a Proposal for debate by the Council as a whole, or may present a Petition to the Duke or any appointed Steward, and the same shall be debated and resolved according to these Rules of Order.
I hereby propose the following before the nobles of Elwynn:
The Council of Eliria, representing the people of Elwynn, hereby recommends to the Golden Mango Throne that it recognize Andrew Allot of Araxion as the Duke of Elwynn.
I recognize that this issue is politically charged, and that there is a greater than normal risk of attempts to circumvent the due process of the Council. Article 1, Rule 2 states that:
2) The Council shall be generally Presided over by His Grace the Duke of Elwynn, or by any appointed Steward of Elwynn, or by the Proposer of a Proposal, but not by the Petitioner of a Petition.
The two claimants to the title of Duke, Iskander Mirkdale and Andrew Allot, are both too personally involved in this matter to preside impartially. So, for that matter, am I. I am willing to accept Steward Leo's presiding over this issue, even though he was named by Iskander. If this is unacceptable to Iskander, I am also willing to invite the Kaiser or Imperial Steward to come here and preside directly as an impartial mediator.
I also remind everyone of Article 4, Rule B, stating that no one may be punished or disciplined for their political beliefs, or their vote on any matter before the Council. Therefore, I urge everyone to vote their conscience on this issue, and urge Iskander to stop his campaign of retribution against the supporters of Duke Allot for the remainder of this vote.
I will post an argument in favor of this proposal in a moment, and urge Iskander to post an argument opposing it rather than simply using martial law to clear the council chamber or some such violation.
[formerly written as the speech of Nehani Eiserdion; now published under my own name. Please excuse any unusually bombastic style.]
People of Elwynn: I believe it is time this land cast off the dukeship of Iskander Mirkdale and acknowledged Andrew Allot as its sovereign.
It has become appallingly clear to me that Baron Mirkdale's interests lie less in using his throne, then in holding onto it. In the past two days after our little rebellion has begun, Baron Mirkdale made twenty-four posts. In the entire two months before that, he made less than twenty. It is this sense that there is nothing to be done, that Elwynn can be neglected as already complete, that has shaken my faith in him. Iskander believes that all a Duke must do is make occasional Landsraad votes, and thus, that is all that has been done in Elwynn during his reign since the preliminary burst of activity when he first took the throne.
Andrew Allot, during his month-odd stay in Shireroth, has already made more posts than Iskander has in two years. And his posts are not mere yeas or nays in the Landsraad. In his own county of Araxion, he has already revived the worship of the goddess Elwynn. Elsewhere, he has passed the bar test and gained membership in the Guild of Lawyers, recruited a new citizen to Shireroth, become MiniInfo, restored the glory of Malarbor, opened a business, resurrected SSHIT, and started a radio station. I believe in meritocracy. And I believe that Andrew Allot has done more to earn the title of Duke than Iskander Mirkdale.
In his single day as claimant to the Ducal Throne, Duke Allot has already made new flags for areas long left flagless during Iskander's term, prayed for Elwynn at the Multi-Temple, and commissioned a history of the rebellion. Andrew Allot has done as much in one day as Iskander Mirkdale has in six months.
Throughout the land, even unto the Golden Mango Throne, there is a tradition that, after ruling a certain period a noble should step down in favor of an heir with fresh new ideas. Indeed, some historians have called this the very essence of Shireroth, saying that without the "three-month" rule placed upon the Kaisership our nation would never have become as vibrant as it is. Though no official three-month rule is placed upon the Duchies of the land, still this same principle has moved the rise and fall of the great noble houses. Erik Mortis is no longer Duke of Brookshire, nor does Scott Alexander rule Elwynn. Jonas has stepped aside as Dutch of Kildare, and Jacobus Loki given Yardistan to another. Ari still rules Straylight, true, but it is one thing for Shireroth's most active citizen, beloved of his subjects, to remain in a position, and quite another for Iskander Mirkdale to do so - and even Ari has frequently ceded his Landsraad powers to another!
I do not ask that the three-month rule apply to Duchies: this would be madness and a break with tradition. But I do think that the spirit that moves the rule - the idea that someone who has lost interest and activity should cede a position to another rather than grasping it ever the more tightly - still applies. It is thus that the Hyperboreans ceded the lordship of Elwynn thrice, and they shall do so a fourth time should it a fourth time fall into their hands.
Iskander Mirkdale has made no move to abide by this spirit. Rather, when he was asked to leave, he has in a fit of spite stripped away the lands and titles of those who did the asking. I wish justice not for myself alone, but especially for Rai Avon-El, the beloved conscience of the Elw, whose years of service to this Duchy were repaid by Mirkdale with the boot. The Duke has locked all threads in which the matter has been discussed, and sought to demand the Babkhan ritual of homage from his previously free subjects.
It is a tradition of this great land that there be no punishment for those who rebel. Even Kaiser Hasan I pardoned the Jacobites, and Kaiser Ayreon I pardoned the Jacobites who rebelled against his reign as well. And when Jacobus at last took power, he pardoned Ayreon's ties to Babkha. In all the history of the land, I know of only one man who has punished his subjects for a just rebellion, and that is Iskander Mirkdale. This does not cow the people of Hyperborea. It only makes them ever more committed to ending his control of our lands.
We the free Elwynnese come from all corners of the Duchy. Please, hear our words.
Leo: I request that those whom Baron Iskander promoted to nobility after this proposal was made not be allowed to vote, as it is otherwise too easy for him to rig the Council with his supporters, though they may of course vote on all subsequent proposals.
Iskander: Obviously, OOC Scott wrote the speeches, but IC they are being made by Nehani and a priest, respectively. If you mean whether I agree with all the statements therein, that's a tough one. I agree with everything Nehani said, although he seems to be angrier about it than I am. As for the priest's speech, well, OOC Scott does believe that OOC Iain Jacobson is using two logins, Iain de Vembria and Iskander Mirkdale. OOC Scott believes that all of the priest's historical references were factual. OOC Scott does believe that IC Iain de Vembria was, in the context of the Treesian game, possessed by demons sworn to the destruction of Elwynn. OOC Scott does not believe that the statement "Iskander Mirkdale is a demon" currently has an IC truth-value, since the only "truth" in the context of the game is mutually-agreed upon fantasy, and there is no mutual agreement on this statement. OOC Scott does not believe that OOC Iain Jacobson is a demon. Does that answer your question? If not, please interpret all statements in the least defamatory way possible, for your convenience
I will herby be presiding over this proposal as Steward of Elwynn,
The first order of business will be to confine all discussions regarding this rebellion to within the Counsel of Eliria or The Kaiser's Court. The battle of power and decrees have come to the point that it is no longer clear which such decrees have become applicable. (my stewardship for example) I call for a vote on this point.
Second, until the resolution of this "rebellion" I move that acting upon Decrees XXXV to XXXIX (excluding XXXVIII) be defered until the resolution of this Counsel.
Third, by recommendation of Scott I herby revoke the right to vote from Jakobus Loki for suspicion of bribery.
Fourth, the Kaiser has stated the he prefer not interfere with this rebellion directly unless absolutely necessary so I urge both parties to resolve the issue within the boundaries of this counsel unless it is evident that no resolution may be found.
Last, I as a citizen of Elwynn do plead that the Duke consider stepping down and allowing the blood of Elwynn to remain fresh and new.
By the grace of the Light,
Last edited by Leo Fenrir on Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Firstly, I would like to point out that while trying to rig this council with supporters might be an entertaining exercise, it is highly unlikely that I would ever waste my time doing so, for one hopefully rather obvious reason.
Secondly, as you may noticed by now, the Kaiser has clearly stated that he "would prefer you [us] to find a way to conclude the matter in an interesting manner without my direct interference". This proposal's intention is to directly involve the Kaiser, which would obviously go against the Kaiser's wishes, and that might be a slightly unwise thing to do.
Thirdly, I shall now ask Leo the following:
Leo, I request either:
- that Count Scott's argument above be rejected on the grounds that, if you should consider it not to be made directly by the Count but by the "in-character personas", it is inadmissable as this Council only constitutes the Nobles of this Duchy, or
- if you consider his argument above to have been made by the Count himself but in a narrative style (which, given current events, may be a better interpretation), that you order Count Scott to immediately withdraw the entire contents in his second blockquote as it clearly constitutes a personal attack against myself in breach of this Council's Rules of Decorum.
Fourthly, as the Count of Hyperborea has now apparently seen fit to disregard this Council and his petition and take his argument directly to the Kaiser anyway, I must also now reluctantly ask Leo to consider whether such action is in breach of this Council's Rules of Discipline, with particular regard to clauses 4)a)ii) and v).
On the topic of Jacobus Loki, I sincerely apologize as I must amend my reasons for revoking his vote. While I do see your point on Scott's accusation the reason I made the decision was that: The rebellion was aimed at the revitalization of the Duchy. Because he was not a citizen of Elwynn at the time of the rebellion his motivation to support either parties can only be purely described as political. I therefor cannot allow Jacobus to vote.
On the topic of Scott. Firstly Scott brought his proposal before Kaiser at exactly 5:16 pm [3529 ASC] which occurred about an hour before I made my address to the Counsel at 6:19 [3529 ASC] so no direct breech of Counsel etiquette has occurred. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
On the topic of the Proposal. Following the wishes of the Kaiser an amendment to the Proposal must be made. I move that the following amendment be made:
-The Council of Eliria, representing the people of Elwynn, hereby recommends to the Golden Mango Throne that it recognize Andrew Allot of Araxion as the Duke of Elwynn.
-The Council of Eliria, representing the people of Elwynn, hereby call upon the Nobility and People of Elwynn to vote on the replacement of Duke Iskander with Andrew Allot.
On the topic of the speeches of Nehani Eiserdion. I recognize the breach in etiquette and I urge Scott of Hyperborea to represent himself in the future. And ask the he remove the said speeches from the counsel. However subsequent to the resolution of this counsel I hope to clarify the rule: "the Council at Eliria shall constitute an assembly of the resident Nobles of the Duchy of Elwynn" as it isn't stated that Non-Nobles may not Address the counsel.
Baron Iskander, in response to your request I have reposted Nehani's speech as my own. I thought that writing it in character would be more interesting, but you apparently disagree, and we are at odds on so many issues already that there is no need to create any more needless tension.
I deny that the priest's speech was defamatory, per se. All facts in it were objectively true, unless you deny being Iain de Vembria, deny being associated with Lord Erion, or deny that those comments were made about you. However, it was primarily intended as an in-joke to those familiar with Treesian history, and since there are few enough of those anyway I have taken it down to avoid trouble. If anything in it offended you, I apologize.
As Leo said, I discussed the matter with the Kaiser only in response to your decision to do so first, and before Leo asked us not to do so. I will from here on respect Leo's request to keep this within Elwynn so long as you do the same, until all intra-Elwynn methods of resolving the conflict have failed.
I call for a vote to legalize and make binding any and all decisions made by this Council to avoid further legal quandaries. This vote will be open over a period of two days if in which time all Barons and Counts have not voted majority will rule. Vote will close at 9pm Apollo Standard Time on April 6 [3531 ASC].
By the grace of the Light,
Last edited by Leo Fenrir on Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Noted. Though if I may attempt to clarify. Article one of the Rules of Order states: "the Council at Eliria shall constitute an assembly of the resident Nobles of the Duchy of Elwynn" which till now (from past proposals made to this Council) this has been interpreted as the Duke, and the Barons having the right to vote. (Though Counts have never been barred from speaking in the Council) As of yesterday I suspend all Decrees recently made by the Duke (excluding the one making me Steward so that I may conduct this role legally) so that this Council would be able to function as it would have, say a week ago. Until the resolution of this Council you maintain your Barony and your right to vote in this Council.
At the time of the rebellion, I was (and I still hold myself to be) the Count of Cape Farewell. I didn't have any other status. I was, however, the steward.
I would like to run a role call for this council to clarify who is present for the discussion of this matter. I would ask that you simply reply with your name, position, and "Present".
I herby open the vote to make the following amendment to the Proposal:
Original: "The Council of Eliria, representing the people of Elwynn, hereby recommends to the Golden Mango Throne that it recognize Andrew Allot of Araxion as the Duke of Elwynn."
Amended: "The Council of Eliria, representing the people of Elwynn, hereby call upon the Nobility and People of Elwynn to vote on the replacement of Duke Iskander with Andrew Allot."
On the subject of the Proposal, Iserdia votes AYE.
Nathan,
Prophet of the Butter Bull,
Head Missionary of the Bovic Dominion of Natopia,
Natopian Representative to the Small Commonwealth,
Member of the Roth Zera of Elwynnese Realm
Scott, Count of Hyperborea, acting Baron of Kai-Raikoth for the duration of this council, present.
On the subject of the Proposal, Kai-Raikoth votes AYE.
With a 3/4 majority vote I herby PASS the vote to amend the proposal. The new proposal reads:
The Council of Eliria, representing the people of Elwynn, hereby call upon the Nobility and People of Elwynn to vote on the replacement of Duke Iskander with Andrew Allot.
I now once again call for a vote to legalize any and all decisions reached by the council on the topic of the above Proposal to be effective as of the resolution of this sitting.
I think that its self-evident that we (by we, I mean myself and Iskander) will respect the will of the Council. Should either party fail to acknowledge the Council's will, well, that's where the Arbiter steps in...I think.
Well, that's the thing. I don't know if Iskander is legally bound to recognize decrees of this council. It's more of an advisory body, or at best has the relationship to the Duke that the Landsraad does to the Kaiser. I don't think the Arbiter could legally force Iskander to go along with its decisions unless Iskander agreed to do so.
This is why I phrased the original resolution as a request to the Throne and not as the Council impeaching Duke Iskander, and why I started a rebellion instead of a council vote. Any vote we do is important, and will serve to let the rest of Shireroth know the opinion of Elwynn on this issue, but I don't think in itself it will solve the matter unless Iskander lets it.
Iskander, what's your opinion on this issue? Do you agree to accept a vote if it goes in Allot's favor?
(oh, and if a fair vote goes against Allot, I will accept it and recognize Iskander as Duke again)
You're correct Scott: there is no legal obligation. However, if both I and Iskander take an Oath in front of the Arbiter (or another official) to accept the decision of the council, then it is binding. That's what we should do.
I would recommend myself, the Kaiser or another Duke for such an oath. As for the matter of internal Elwynnese matters, I wish to be involved as little as possible in my role as Arbiter. I will hear any appeal though, if one would end up in the Judex.
His Grace the Lord Brookshire, LK GMNS
Arbiter, Imperial Judex
Duke of Brookshire, Baron of Lakhesis
Knight of the Dragon
Fan of SOAD
As Duke of Brookshire His Grace has expressed support for the rebellion, and so I respectfully suggest that he recuse himself in this matter.
All power rests in the Kaiser. His office created the Duke. Thus let him judge.
For if we are to permit Barons to take power during a momentary weakness of a duke, what stability and what law shall protect other duchies? what if Lord "A" and the presumptive Lord Allot were to orchestrate a rebellion in Brookshire with the assitance of the disaffected?
What if His Grace Lord Whoever and another Duke should sense the end of the reign of a wise but aged Kaiser, and desire to supplant the Kaiser's annointed heir with one of their own members?
This way i say lies chaos. Chaos can be fun, but it is dangeous.
I urge the lords assembled to withdraw their ill-concieved rebellion return to their loyalty, and retire unto yon soon-to-be-smoke-filled room to craft a more Shirithian settlement.
All the points that have been raised are valid and I will try to address them.
First I would like to address the point of weather a council can legally depose the Duke:
-While it is true that no where is it explicitly stated that a Duke must abide by a resolution reached by the council, In Article 2 Sub-Section 7 it is stated that "At the conclusion of voting procedures, according to the votes cast a Presiding Member will announce the passing or rejection of the Proposal or the Petition. A relevant decree will then be issued by the Duke of Elwynn or an appointed Steward." I would like to draw attention to the wording in bold as there is the implicit statement that a vote reached by the council will be passed as a decree.
-Also should this council agree that the Duke has no legal duty to pass any and all proposals that have been voted AYE I question the use of this council as a body if it holds no power.
Jacobus Loki:
-While I understand your position and views on this matter we have decided that involving the Kiaser is not going to be an option (By request of his Nifftyness himself).
-Also I find you slightly hypocritical on the matter of bringing up the possibility of another revolt in a different Duchy lead by Allot when you have done effectively the same thing. (Moving to Elwynn merely to hinder the Rebellion which just adds to this "Chaos" you seek to avoid). I would also ask you do not slander the members in such a manner.
-Finally this rebellion is not just some whimsical movement to take power. It is nothing of the sort in truth. This rebellion was not aiming to take advantage of this moment of weakness you address but instead a movement to correct it and preserve Elwynn.
Council of Elwynn:
-As it seems that Duke Iskander has become slightly unresponsive, if the Duke does not return to speak before the council to give his opinion on the matter of the legality of a Council vote within the next three days on (3534 ASC 8pm Apollo Time) I will move this vote to the Landsraad so this matter doesn't have to lay unresolved for too long.
-Please note that should this matter be moved to the Landsraad, this sitting will not officially end until the resolution of the vote and the Preator passes the Bill.
My good sirs, I do not cast aspersions on rthe honor of any here gathered, merely on the propriety of their actions.
Mr. Leo and Mr. Allot were not here when Loki III appointed the Count of Hyperborea as Lord Protector of Elwynn, and later appointed Duke Iskander as Duke at the suggestion of the Count.
My association and interactions with the Count go back to the Days before Days, to the time of the Parliament of Audentior Before Whom All Mortals Trembled. I have always held, and still hold, him in the highest regard.
I have no problem with the motives of the Count, only with the method by which these motives have been bourne out in this instance.
As for my position, it is in part a reaction due to the actions of citizens of Brookshire and other Duchies in support of the unlawful rebellion. Elwynn is a fief of the Kaiser of Shireroth, not, with all due respect, the personal property of the Count of Hyperborea, for him to dispose of as he thinks best.
The Kaiserial office once showed determination and fatherly concern regarding the fate of Elwynn. It is in part due to that old concern that I have come to the defense of the rightful Duke.
I come also filled with disappointment at the lack of decision on the part of the Kaiser to protect his lawful liegeman, the Duke of Elwynn. I believe that a Kaiser has duties of loyalty downward as well as a Duke owes loyalty upward.
Breach of that relationship by either party raises large questions in the social contract.
I have the honour of addressing you, this Council of Eliria, as the servant of Elwynn and the sovereign People of Cape Farewell.
Perhaps a compromise could be sought. That we establish here in Elwynn a constitution to govern us.
An agreement so honourable would be sought that it would keep Iskander Mirkdale duke, but with powers only granted under the constitution of Elwynn. He would be a figurehead, symbolizing the unity of the Elwynnese people.
ANd then the powers would go to the Elwynnese people, acting through the Counts and Earls of the Elwynnese realm of the Shirerithian republic, in the Council at Eliria assembled, who would decide to instute among themselves an executive, to make sure the will of the constitution is followed. The post of Envoy to the Landsraad would be appointed by the executive, provided that he follows instructions from the Council.
A juridicature would be set up, perhaps following the Hyperborean model, whose decisions, by all decency, and if needed, by law, would be binding.
