[Proposal] Recommendation to the Throne

[Jacobus Loki]

Tell us more, Lord Farewell!

[Malliki]

As Duke of Brookshire His Grace has expressed support for the rebellion, and so I respectfully suggest that he recuse himself in this matter.

All power rests in the Kaiser. His office created the Duke. Thus let him judge.

For if we are to permit Barons to take power during a momentary weakness of a duke, what stability and what law shall protect other duchies? what if Lord "A" and the presumptive Lord Allot were to orchestrate a rebellion in Brookshire with the assitance of the disaffected?

What if His Grace Lord Whoever and another Duke should sense the end of the reign of a wise but aged Kaiser, and desire to supplant the Kaiser's annointed heir with one of their own members?

This way i say lies chaos. Chaos can be fun, but it is dangeous.

I urge the lords assembled to withdraw their ill-concieved rebellion return to their loyalty, and retire unto yon soon-to-be-smoke-filled room to craft a more Shirithian settlement.

You actually cry more than a little baby Jake. You always have some high moral justification for putting your nose in other people's business, but its always just so you can bitch and whine about everything. Every single major change that has been proposed in Shireroth over the last six months or so have been opposed by you. If we were to follow your lead every time Shireroth would go nowhere.

[Nathan of Natopia]

While Rai's proposal of a constitution reeks of democracy, I am interested in pursuing some form of constitutional framework for Elwynn. Perhaps keeping more powers for the duke than mere figurehead. My initial support for this rebellion is for something to shake up Elwynn, and Allot has done just that... his work in Araxion during my LOA was quite a pleasant surprise and he will do amazing things for Elwynn. However, I do still honor and respect Duke Iskander and would dearly like to see him retain his office and choose an heir so that we may have a peaceful transition.

Therefore, if such a constitutional framework can be established in Elwynn such that in the future the absence of the Duke could not so strangle the progress of the entire duchy... and that powers can be shared among the duke and council... or even perhaps granting the council the ability to appoint an heir in cases of extreme absence (a slippery slope to democracy though).

If such a scenario were to be endorsed by Duke Iskander and agreed to by the citizens of Elwynn, I will fully endorse Iskander as rightful duke of Elwynn and respectfully denounce the rebellion against him.

[Allot]

I agree with Nathan. With a more balanced sharing of power between the Duke and the Council, Rai's proposal might work. I am willing to go along with this should it be amended accordingly. However, I will not allow Iskander to appoint an heir nor to continue as Duke. This was the cause of the rebellion and I have reason to believe that an Iskander appointed heir would be even worse than Iskander himself.

[Leo Fenrir]

As the topic of this Council seems to be shifting I would like to ask the opinion of this Council. But first I will adress the matter of Jacobus and Mike.

Jacobus. I believe there is enough evidence of your motives (catalyzing chaos) to ban you from speaking in this Council until the conclusion of this matter. Therefor as presider of this Council I herby revoke your right to speak before us until further notice. Should you wish to contest this please address the topic in another location.

Mike. While I do appreciate your views on the topic, this Council is an assembly of Elwynn nobles and I would ask that, should you wish to present a view to us, that you constrain yourself to discussing the Proposal and not other members of the Council.

While a new course of action has been proposed acting upon both this proposed constitution and the current topic at hand seems illogical. I therefor propose that we undertake the folowing steps:
-Await the desingnated periode I have set for the Duke to reply.
-Should he vote NAY to legalizing actions undertaken by this council then I will declare this council adjourned and I will personally bring the matter to the Landsraad. The proposal for the overhauling of the legal system should then be addressed in a separate sitting of the Council.
-Should the Duke NOT responded in the designated time I will bring the issue before the Landsrrad as I previously said (maintaing the same conditions).

On a personal note this overhaul sounds too much like this Democracy that I hear so poorly of but at the same time I do suport the issue.

[Malliki]

I only posted here to respond to Jake. I apologize to the Council for posting out of order.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I didn't find Jacobus' point particularly out of order, and am baffled by the Steward's decision to exclude him. I think it deserves a response.

My good sirs, I do not cast aspersions on rthe honor of any here gathered, merely on the propriety of their actions. Mr. Leo and Mr. Allot were not here when Loki III appointed the Count of Hyperborea as Lord Protector of Elwynn, and later appointed Duke Iskander as Duke at the suggestion of the Count.

My association and interactions with the Count go back to the Days before Days, to the time of the Parliament of Audentior Before Whom All Mortals Trembled. I have always held, and still hold, him in the highest regard. I have no problem with the motives of the Count, only with the method by which these motives have been bourne out in this instance.

As for my position, it is in part a reaction due to the actions of citizens of Brookshire and other Duchies in support of the unlawful rebellion. Elwynn is a fief of the Kaiser of Shireroth, not, with all due respect, the personal property of the Count of Hyperborea, for him to dispose of as he thinks best.

The Kaiserial office once showed determination and fatherly concern regarding the fate of Elwynn. It is in part due to that old concern that I have come to the defense of the rightful Duke. I come also filled with disappointment at the lack of decision on the part of the Kaiser to protect his lawful liegeman, the Duke of Elwynn. I believe that a Kaiser has duties of loyalty downward as well as a Duke owes loyalty upward.

Jacobus has no problem with my motives (which were to see Duke Iskander replaced) but only with my methods (declaration of a rebellion).

But by what methods might I have achieved those motives? I can think of three - making a post saying that I believed Duke Iskander should step down, posting in the Council of Eliria starting a vote for Duke Iskander to be impeached), or going over the heads of the Elwynnese and asking Kaiser Agni, in private, to replace Duke Iskander.

The third method would have been insulting to Elwynn and to the Duke. It would have been denying them a chance to control their own destiny, an attempt to replace the will of the Duchy with my own political pull in Shirekeep. And it would have denied Duke Iskander the chance to step down gracefully, to say "Yes, you're right, let's revitalize this Duchy". The first he would have heard of it would've been when the Kaiser decreed him fired. This seemed to me like an unacceptable method of action.

The second method, the use of the Council, is the one we chose - as this thread itself proves. However, once again I wanted to give Duke Iskander the chance to step down gracefully, instead of arranging it so that the first he heard of it was logging on to see a vote for his own impeachment halfway concluded.

The first method; making a post saying we no longer believed in Duke Iskander and we wanted him gone - was the one we chose to try first. It gave the Duke a chance to avert conflict by stepping down, while leaving the other two options open if he didn't. I continue to think it was the best move.

Yes, I phrased this post in the form of a rebellion, instead of in the form of a complaint. I said "We're rebelling against Duke Iskander", not "We demand Duke Iskander step down." This is a stylistic issue, nothing else. I chose that style because it seemed appropriate to Shireroth, whose own national anthem proclaims it "the land of the rebel". I chose that style in honor of Jacobus Loki, and all of the fun rebellions he and his fellow Yardistanis have given us. And I chose it because it was more interesting, and likely to create activity.

In a macronation, there is a huge difference between a petition and a rebellion - the petition is peaceful, but the rebellion involves destruction of life and property. In a micronation, loss of life and property is impossible, so the difference between a petition and a rebellion is one of style. Shireroth has always recognized this, and it's why as far as I know in all of Shirerithian history no one has ever been punished for a rebellion, and the Kaiser has never actually used his legal right to quash one. Anyone objecting to the "illegality" of this rebellion, in my opinion, misses this fundamental point.

I don't deny that what I did was technically illegal, but the emphasis is very much on "technically" and very little on "illegal". This is why I proposed the Decriminalization of Rebellion Act, which everyone seemed to like but which got stalled because of Landsraad inactivity. I think the Kaiser is making the right choice in trying to stay within both the letter and the spirit of the law by technically condemning this rebellion but refusing to actively prohibit it.

Moving on!

Perhaps a compromise could be sought. That we establish here in Elwynn a constitution to govern us. An agreement so honourable would be sought that it would keep Iskander Mirkdale duke, but with powers only granted under the constitution of Elwynn. He would be a figurehead, symbolizing the unity of the Elwynnese people. ANd then the powers would go to the Elwynnese people, acting through the Counts and Earls of the Elwynnese realm of the Shirerithian republic, in the Council at Eliria assembled, who would decide to instute among themselves an executive, to make sure the will of the constitution is followed. The post of Envoy to the Landsraad would be appointed by the executive, provided that he follows instructions from the Council.

I am not entirely opposed to this idea. Compromise is good, and if everyone else approves of it I will grudgingly go along.

But it doesn't really satisfy me. Why, exactly, would we make the most controversial and polarizing figure in Elwynn a "symbol of the unity of the Elwynnese people"? No matter what the law says, the duke will never be *just* a figurehead. He will be the person responsible for stimulating the Duchy and inspiring it onward. This is in fact exactly the opposite of Iskander's skill set: he has legendary decision-making abilities, but isn't so good at leading people, inspiring followers, or winning anyone's loyalty.

In fact, given that Allot would be a much more active leader for the Duchy, but is still very new and might not know the ins and outs of politics, I think a compromise should try to take the opposite route: something allowing him to be the Duchy's official face and rallying point, but allowing Iskander to remain in some position where we can take advantage of his statesmanship when it is needed.

[Iskander Mirkdale]

Well it is good to see that a great many points worthy of consideration are indeed being considered. However, as this proposal was supposed originally be just about changing Dukes, I would recommend something that requires each new Duke to publish a line of succession (if here is no current one) within a reasonable period of time of taking office, failure to do so would mean this responsibility for this would pass to the Steward (when there is one) and ultimately this Council (which cold be given special powers to enforce succession in the absence of anyone else able to decree something). Ultimately responsibility would still lie with the Landsraad and Kaiser as per usual.

However, I am minded to bring forward my own short-term plans for this as this is in danger of taking up rather more time than I would like, so stay tuned.

With regards to general constitutional matters in the Duchy, I believe that the Rules of the Council, as started by Harold and amended by ourselves give as much democratic leeway as possible within a feudal system that allows Dukes complete authority over their duchies.

[Jacobus Loki]

Milord Duke, I respectfully request that you lift the ban on my speech before this council.

[Iskander Mirkdale]

Given that the Rules of Order of the Council clearly state that this place shall constitute an assembly of the resident Nobles of this Duchy without qualification, you may consider your ban to be annulled with immediate effect.

[Leo Fenrir]

As the matter of replacing Duke Iskander with Andrew Allot can no longer be addressed,

I herby declare this Council CLOSED.