Moving on to greater things

stevenAntica · Post by **stevenAntica** » Fri May 26, 2006 10:41 am

It has come to my attention that this conference, so far has only been concerned with territory. This is a silly and vain thing. This conference's goals are not only about territory but about securing peace between Micras's two greatest powers. This conference began about territory but must be expanded past that to greater and more noble things. The peace of micras depends on our nation's cooperation. For the Shirithians to give us territory and do no more and the Anticans to take the territory and ask for no more would be a grave mistake. Initiatives must be taken to secure that our two nations can return to warmer relations. Is it the responsibility of this meeting to secure that warmer relations return. This goal should supercede all territorial talks.

Today's situation is a sad one, there is so much hard feelings between Antica and Shireroth. Now, the source of this tension is gone, and most of us believe, and hope, in both the Shirekeep in Nafticon, that he is gone for good. I believe all can toast to the positive effects of his leaving us. With this source of tension gone, wew must try to mend the links which he severed in his neverending megalomaniacal quests. How are we to go about this? I have ideas, but I don't have all the ideas. I will propose a few thoughts I have had over the past couple of days.

1. Economic bonds in the past have proven to be a great stimulator of peace. One only needs to look at the tongue and cheek "Golden Arches theory of Conflict Prevention" (that no two nations with a macdonalds will go to war). Antica, is at the moment attempting to start up an economy whihc combines simulationism with real economics. I believe it is high time we set up an Antican common market between our two nations. The more we interact with eachother, the less likely we are to hate eachother.

2. SNARL. We need a SNARL war. It almost happened but then the trial cut that line off. We should restart that proposed war as soon as possible. It can only serve to draw us closer together.

3. There are many Shirithians who double over as Anticans but not many Anticans who jump over to Shireroth for a dual citizenship. Maybe we could encourage a portion of the population to become dual citizens. We need less of me and more of Baldwin.

4. A board of grievances. This is sort of what they do in countries like South Africa. We need to be able to have some resolution to our personal grudges with eachother. International psychotherapy.

These are only a couple of my ideas. I think this is far more important than territory.

Kaiser Meskan II · Post by **Kaiser Meskan II** » Fri May 26, 2006 1:42 pm

First of all, I agree. Territory was only the initiator of these talks, not simply the actual point. It was meant to reconcile our grudges so that we could become allies again, just like we were allies in the old Dinarchy days.

1. I'm not sure if that is a good idea. First of all, Shireroth doesn't even have a real economy, although de jure we have a post-based economy. Second of all, plenty of people here have their doubts on the feasibility of any economic system. The reason why our Ministry of Trade has been inactive has been because we havn't found a system that works for us. So if we did this, it would probably bomb.

2. Technically wasn't it more of my fault than the trial's?

I agree, although I'm not sure if I can particpate myself. The problem is getting people who are interested.

3. Completely agree. Perhaps we could relaxen the restrictions on dual citizenship for our nations for the sole exception of our pair opf nations.

4. Ha! You'd have to have a whole board for myself before a Shirerothian-Antican one.

Good idea, though.

Post by **Scott of Hyperborea** » Fri May 26, 2006 2:03 pm

I provisionally agree with Bill about economics. Right now I don't understand your economic system and I haven't been able to find enough publically accessible information about it to learn more. Once we learn more about it we might be more supportive of it.

I think part of the problem you mention in 3 has to do with Shirerithians not being able to access most of Antica's forums. I used to go hang out at Antica all the time; now I don't because I know I can't participate in any of the interesting discussions.

If you were to have a visa program where people who you know are responsible and not going to cause trouble could apply to access and post on whichever of your boards don't contain important national secrets, we could try to reciprocate in some way. We don't really have any secret boards other than ones relating to military and intelligence that have to stay secret, but we could invite you guys to our chats or something.

Also, Kaiser, since you live right next to a lot of Anticans (Gemini and a couple of others are Long Islanders), you might try meeting them in person. That's usually a pretty good tension-reliever.

As for number four, I don't think Shireroth really has any outstanding grievances with you other than you occasionally insulting or yelling at us. It's more of an atmosphere of distrust than any particular easily solveable issue, and I feel like that can only be resolved by waiting until a period of better relations pushes that distrust out of our minds.

osmose1000 · Post by **osmose1000** » Fri May 26, 2006 2:06 pm

Just the willingness shown in these talks so far has warmed(made better, cooled, warmed, WHATEVER) relations on both sides.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Fri May 26, 2006 2:09 pm

They're all very good measures to take. We must consider them all when we write the Treaty.

stevenAntica · Post by **stevenAntica** » Fri May 26, 2006 6:02 pm

I agree with Scott that Antica has become to much of an iron curtain in regards to its forums. We have already voted to reopen them but Antica moves at the speed of an 80 year old man's bowels.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Fri May 26, 2006 6:16 pm

With or without prune juice and Epsom salts?

Rarkasha · Post by **Rarkasha** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:24 pm

I particularly agree with idea 2. Mainly because I like simulated violence, explosions, and strategy. But who doesn't?

With idea number 1, we could always set up a simple bartering system. Not as Shireroth's official type of economy, but it would suffice until we can set up a better system.

stevenAntica · Post by **stevenAntica** » Sat May 27, 2006 6:01 pm

In response to Scott's statements, I think on the other side of the coin, many Anticans have a lot of pent up Anti-Shireroth rage. And that needs to be addressed.

But I think that everything else is doable. I think we need to really open up our forums although I'm not sure how much i could really open up. I think we only closed the assembly...and the stuff there is kinda boring.

Ruth · Post by **Ruth** » Sun May 28, 2006 4:17 pm

As of now, the Assembly Forums have been re-opened.

Post by **Scott of Hyperborea** » Sun May 28, 2006 5:21 pm

What about the Abandoned Warehouse?

stevenAntica · Post by **stevenAntica** » Sun May 28, 2006 5:57 pm

How do you even know about the abandoned warehouse?

Anyway, the abandoned warehouse is a citizens only forum for a reason.

Ruth · Post by **Ruth** » Sun May 28, 2006 6:07 pm

If we willingly opened the Abandoned Warehouse, where would we make our evil plans to spread 'freedom' to Micras?

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sun May 28, 2006 7:09 pm

Yeah! Anyway, Shireroth doesn't exactly have an economy at the moment...but we're working on it! But, are we then ready to begin writing the Treaty?

Maggern · Post by **Maggern** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:34 am

There seems to be a general consensus on the terms here, so I guess we can churn out a treaty as soon as a gifted legislator/diplomat takes action.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Mon May 29, 2006 10:18 am

TREATY OF ALCYON

Preamble

THE IMPERIAL REPUBLIC OF SHIREROTH and THE REPUBLIC OF ANTICA, having found their interests to be congruent, and desirous of peace and prosperity for and between both, the ambassadors of these nations have assembled here to draw up this Document, which is to ensure that past grievances are dealt with and new ones are sorted out properly.

ARTICLE 1:
Land

The Imperial Republic of Shireroth cedes the counties of Skiron, Mesoun, and Platea to the Republic of Antica.
A.) The County of Kaikias is to be divided on the following lines: All things north and west of the border (drawn in black) are to be Antican, including the former Capital of Kaikias, Neronea (the capital of Shirithian Kaikias is to be moved north, to the city of Civitas Atia, whose name is to be changed.)

ARTICLE 2:
Cooperation

A.)A Board of Grievances is formed. The Imperial Republic of Shireroth and the Republic of Antica are to appoint three representatives to this Board. The Anticans may set up their own system for appointing members, but the Kaiser will appoint members for Shireroth.
B.) When and if Shirerith is bestowed with an economy, trade is to be conducted with Antica, and vice versa.
C.) For the sake of furthering our comeradery and friendship, a SNARL recwar is to be held, as soon as possible.
D.) Dual citizenships are to be encouraged between the two nations.

ARTICLE 3:
Sovereignty and Other Diplomatic Stuff and Fluff

A.) THE IMPERIAL REPUBLIC OF SHIREROTH and the REPUBLIC OF ANTICA recognize the sovereignty and territory of eachother, and pledge not to attack eachother in an unscheduled or malicious manner, and to delegate all disputes to the Board of Grievances.

osmose1000 · Post by **osmose1000** » Mon May 29, 2006 5:48 pm

ARTICLE 2:
Cooperation

A.) A Board of Grievances shall be formed to handle specific disputes between Shireroth and Antica.
--1.The Board of Grievances shall consist of three representatives from both the Imperial Republic of Shireroth and the Republic of Antica.
--2.The methods by which representatives are appointed are to be determined by each country seperately.
--3.The Board of Grievances shall handle disputes between Antica and Shireroth on a case by case basis until a solution can be found.
B.) The Imperial Republic of Shireroth pledges to work towards establishing trade with the Republic of Antica in the event that an economy is formed within Shireroth.
C.) Both nations pledge to encourage dual citizenship with each other in order to promote peace and cooperation between the two.

Updated the wording a bit (might do so to the rest of the treaty, but that's not the main reason of the edit). Defined the roles and setup of the Board of Grievances a bit better.

Most of all, I struck out the SNARL bit. I don't know if I'm alone in this opinion, but although starting a SNARL war is a fun way of interacting with other nations, I don't think it should be something done to further good relations, especially since disputes can arise from the conduct and outcome of the recwar, and especially since a forced recwar usually isn't as good as a spontaneous one.

stevenAntica · Post by **stevenAntica** » Mon May 29, 2006 9:35 pm

agreed. It's not really treaty material but we can agree to it unofficially here.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Tue May 30, 2006 1:35 pm

Yes. In fact, Osmose, if you really want to, you're perfectly welcome to go through and update the whole thing. I don't mind.

osmose1000 · Post by **osmose1000** » Tue May 30, 2006 5:16 pm

The Treaty of Alcyon

Preamble

THE IMPERIAL REPUBLIC OF SHIREROTH and THE REPUBLIC OF ANTICA, having found their interests to be congruent, and desirous of peace and prosperity for and between both nations, hereby agree to form a treaty of friendship and support, the Treaty of Alcyon, in order to guide the reestablishment of positive relations between the two nations.

ARTICLE 1: Land

A.) The Imperial Republic of Shireroth cedes the counties of Skiron, Mesoun, and Platea to the Republic of Antica.
B.) The County of Kaikias is to be according to the diagram below. All lands north and west of the border (drawn in black) are to be Antican, including the former Capital of Kaikias, Neronea. The capital of Shirithian Kaikias is to be moved north, to the city of Civitas Atia, whose name is to be changed by it's count outside the scope of this treaty.

ARTICLE 2: Reconciliation

A.) A Board of Grievances shall be formed to handle specific disputes between Shireroth and Antica.
--1.The Board of Grievances shall consist of three representatives from both the Imperial Republic of Shireroth and the Republic of Antica.
--2.The methods by which representatives are appointed are to be determined by each country seperately.
--3.The Board of Grievances shall handle disputes between Antica and Shireroth on a case by case basis until a solution can be found.
B.) The Imperial Republic of Shireroth pledges to work towards establishing trade with the Republic of Antica in the event that an economy is formed within Shireroth.
C.) Both nations pledge to encourage dual citizenship with each other in order to promote peace and cooperation between the two.

ARTICLE 3: Everything Else

A.) THE IMPERIAL REPUBLIC OF SHIREROTH and the REPUBLIC OF ANTICA recognize the sovereignty and territory of eachother, and pledge not to attack eachother in an unscheduled or malicious manner.
B.) THE IMPERIAL REPUBLIC OF SHIREROTH and the REPUBLIC OF ANTICA agree to delegate all disputes to the Board of Grievances.
C.) As a measure of good will, THE IMPERIAL REPUBLIC OF SHIREROTH and the REPUBLIC OF ANTICA both agree to allow either nation to rescind this treaty by whatever means standard in either micronations.

Too lazy to bold changed parts. Thanks for the template, Baldwin. :P

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Tue May 30, 2006 6:25 pm

Haha, you're welcome. If there are no more grievances, the Anticans may take this and put it before the Assembly, and we can either have the Landsraad vote on this, or simply ask Bill to adopt the Treaty in a decree.

The code for that diagram is img]http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j249/ ... ement1.png[/img]
Insert the first bracket.

stevenAntica · Post by **stevenAntica** » Tue May 30, 2006 7:40 pm

I like it. Let me ask my fellow delegates what they think.

Ruth · Post by **Ruth** » Tue May 30, 2006 9:38 pm

Should we change Article 2, Part A, Section 3 to something like:

--3.The Board of Grievances shall handle disputes between Antica and Shireroth (and their respective citizens) on a case by case basis until a solution can be found.

For example, when our forums were attacked, Antica's dispute was not with the nation Shireroth but rather with a specific citizen, Delphi. Should we differentiate among nation-nation disputes and citizen-nation or even citizen-citizen disputes, or am I trying to over elaborate on a topic that needs no further clarification?

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:13 am

I think, if we had another Delphinian case, the nations could just speak for the citizen in question.

osmose1000 · Post by **osmose1000** » Wed May 31, 2006 12:08 pm

How about something more along the lines of:

--3.The Board of Grievances shall handle disputes between Antica and Shireroth in the event that they cannot be handled by normal means. This shall be on a case by case basis until a solution can be found.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Wed May 31, 2006 12:37 pm

What are "normal means"?

Maggern · Post by **Maggern** » Wed May 31, 2006 12:46 pm

I guess a friendly chat over IM...or something like that...

Rarkasha · Post by **Rarkasha** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:18 pm

I suppose "normal means" in this context would be a meanful discussion of some sort that make progress into resolving the problem. It could also mean that in an event to clear the problem, like a trial or recwar, neither side could agree to terms. Lastly, it could also imply that the Board should handle things in the event that "normal means" are not being followed, such as acts of terrorism being used in an attempt to "clear the problem".

osmose1000 · Post by **osmose1000** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:58 pm

Normal means could be defined as what each nation does before going to the Board of Grievances - in thecase of Delphi, a trial. If that doesn't please Antica, as it didn't, the Board works to find out what would please them and if it can be done.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:12 pm

I see. I am pleased with that.

Now, perhaps we should change the wording of Article 2, Part A, Section One to:

--1.The Board of Grievances shall consist of six representatives, three from both the Imperial Republic of Shireroth and the Republic of Antica.

just for the sake of being as clear as possible. I don't want some yahoo taking this and abusing it in the future. As a matter of fact, I ask everyone to scan the document, and see if you find any loose ends, or anything that might be misinterpreted. I want this to be watertight.

Moving on to greater things

Moving on to greater things

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