Giving up land

Post by **Scott of Hyperborea** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:51 pm

Ryan recently gave up some land in the name of Babkha, which was fun to watch (see: http://p100.ezboard.com/fmicronationaln ... =554.topic )

Anyway, I think we should give some up as part of our continuing debigification effort (actually, I think that proposing giving up land is the best way to start a very active discussion and win the war on boredom, but don't tell anyone).

I suggest Balduvien (in the north center of the Audentior continent, near Comstokia). It's small enough and unimportant enough that no one will miss it, and my guess is no one except me even knows we have it at the moment (Cranda gave it to us randomly when they died). It's certainly not much and won't be a huge benefit to the Society, but it will at least be a token gesture that we care.

Let the active discussion begin!

Conglacio · Post by **Conglacio** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:41 am

but it gives you a vote in cranda's diet!

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:53 am

Cranda is dead. Period. There is no need to latch on to it, and it was a mistake in the first place for it to give out land. I completely agree.

There is no need for a vote in a dead nation.

AngelGuardian93 · Post by **AngelGuardian93** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:32 pm

NEVAH!

*torches Scott's house in Hyperborea*

Post by **Scott of Hyperborea** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:44 pm

Winter houses in Hyperborea tend to be made out of ice. Not very conducive to torching.

AngelGuardian93 · Post by **AngelGuardian93** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:46 pm

*watches torch go out*

PRH!

*storms off*

Kaiser Letifer II · Post by **Kaiser Letifer II** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:10 pm

What debigification project.. I like bigification...

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:17 pm

We either give it up as we pick and choose, or Atkins MapTM eats our souls.

Post by **Shyriath** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:13 pm

It's small enough and unimportant enough that no one will miss it, and my guess is no one except me even knows we have it at the moment

I knew as well. I've been kinda wondering if we would ever do anything with it....

I dunno. In the past I would've said no to this, but as time wears on I find myself in less in favor of the we-never-give-back-land idea.

Obviously, we would never want to give up our core lands... the stuff around the Benacian continent, Yardistan, Kildare, Hyperborea. And also obviously, we can't give up land belonging to annexed lands unless the treaty of annexation makes it feasible; we couldn't go giving up Antica without their consent, obviously.

But what about the other places, especially the ones we never do anything with? What good does it do to keep them? Aside from sentimental value, there aren't really that many benefits here at home; and keeping them gets us no respect from people abroad. Giving up nonessential territories not only makes us look good, it also leaves the GC less of an excuse to remain as big as THEY are on the map... whether or not this is a good thing can be debated, but let's face it, it could be fun to watch.

Now all this doesn't mean I've gone opposed to bigification, but I think we ought to change our approach to bigification. If we annex someone, then we need to make the annexation count; a newly acquired territory has to be productive, participatory, a vital part of Shireroth beyond question. Having soeone join us and then disappear does us no good, especially when it brings down accusations of holding on to more territory than we need.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:54 am

Drop Mar Sara, Comstokia and Balduvien.

Comstokia can be incorporated into the unnamed territory east of Bjorngard. Mar Sara can be placed on one of the plethora of unnamed smaller islands near Jaris, Naudia'Diva and so forth.

Balduvien is just a waste of time.

Hypatia Agnesi · Post by **Hypatia Agnesi** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:59 am

I forget his name, but is the "owner" of Comstokia still around? I believe he had a treaty with us to become a protectorate, and you can't just dump him without talking to him.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:13 pm

Actually, John asked me to dump it (or incorporate it elsewhere) right after I had published the new map with Comstokia's present claim on it.

Not to mention John is now involved with Lavalon more than Shireroth.

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:36 pm

Mar Sara can be placed on one of the plethora of unnamed smaller islands near Jaris, Naudia'Diva and so forth.

I want to keep Mar Sara where it is. It has signifiance by me being the only Tapferite/Jasonian territory left, and I do not want to lose it. Placing it elsewhere would destroy its purpose, not including a huge justification for some of Garla Solarian's words, which would require it to be near Tapfer.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:09 pm

OK, before I say anything, will someone kindly explain this "debigification" thing?

AngelGuardian93 · Post by **AngelGuardian93** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:37 pm

People think we're evil because we have all this land, so we're debating on whether to show them we arent that evil by giving up land we dont use. Because people whine like that.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:43 pm

No, I say to that, no! Isn't the POINT of having an EMPIRE to have LAND?!? I think I've said this before!

AngelGuardian93 · Post by **AngelGuardian93** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:44 pm

Hehe. I agree!

Rarkasha · Post by **Rarkasha** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:57 pm

Wouldn't an imperial micronation give up land that had to no concievable benefits in return for the possible benefits of earning trust and gaining allies?

...hmm... perhaps there might be a way to gain even more in return for some land...

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:20 pm

Perhaps, but, then again, an empire doesn't need allies--an empire needs subjects.

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:40 pm

We're not much of an empire. We don't have many subjects, we don't even act like an empire, and I'm not talking about foreign affairs here, I'm talking about the actual nation itself. We're also simply not very active anymore.

The end result is that we're not more active than other particular micronations, and that activity is the sole factor in obtaining land, not politics.

After all, it was only because Shireroth was run by Erik and Scott at first, that it got so much MCS land in the first place.

AngelGuardian93 · Post by **AngelGuardian93** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:43 pm

True enough.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:03 pm

Yes, but I don't see the point of piddling away hard-earned land like that.

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:34 pm

Because other than a select few lands (Antica comes to mind the most), the land wasn't hard-earned. Shireroth proper was huge to begin with at a time when all the nations were huge on the MCS map. The UAS was blatently just claimed, and enforced simply because no one else was left in the UAS. (Proof) Jaris and other lands and the like were manipulated during Tymaria - that wasn't so much hard-earned as it was friendship and manipulation. Hyperborea joined because Scott he became fully Shirerothian. (And that's after I tried to resist it, eventually causing Scott to make it explode, only to reappear after a time paradox) North Mar Sara was given as a bribe by me (yes, by me) for Shireroth to support independence of Tapfer from Tymaria. South Mar Sara was given to Shireroth after Menelmacar died, even though there was no reason as to Shireroth actually receiving it.

As you can see, this isn't really hard-earned. As Fax and Scott once put it, Shireroth is like the British Commonwealth, except it's neither British, nor a commonwealth; it's a glorified nothing.

As well, you can see part of the reasons why I didn't join Shireroth until a year ago when I knew about Shireroth since it was founded.

H4773r 3lfs0n · Post by **H4773r 3lfs0n** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:57 am

Bill Has a point (as he usually does) but (as much as i hate to say it again) I agree with Baldwin... This is an Empire and I would like to see it act like one.

so, somewhere else I will try to help stimulate activity and recruitment.

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:51 am

Well, the desire to keep all land is different from what will inevitably happen. There are reasons why we should go with this.

1) It is going to happen anyway. Ryan has been planning to reduce the larger territories for a long time, and the member nations will have to oblige - there is no use protesting in a case like this.

2) The only formal way of protesting if it did happen is to leave the MCs map. Not only will this seem very arrogant, it will destroy a significant part of our culture, as the MCS map is copyrighted, so we cannot use its material or have works derived from it if we leave like this. We would have to completely revamp the map, and frankly, a move like this would make me leave Shireroth, as the major reason why I am part of Shireroth is Shireroth's connection to the Apollo Sector, including the MCS map.

3) Scott and I agree with it. Both of us are members of the MCS staff, although I'm the only active one who is not Ryan.

4) It is diplomatically advantageous for us to go with it. We would be liked much more, considering the fact that we're seen by other nations as probably an isolationist America in terms of attitude and arrogance. As well, doing this will allow us to control which land is kept and which is not, otherwise it would be wholely determined by Ryan.

5) Other nations will have to pay the price too. This mostly means the GC - which is by far more of an empire than we are, and is hated because of its methods, a good example of using RecWar to attack nations regardless if said nations actually want to be attacked. (Mutual consent is required for RecWars) Most importantly is its mockery of the Apollo Sector by keeping and claiming lands formerly part of the Apollo Sector - namely, Treesia and Audentior, as well as Aerlig's claim of being sort of an heir to Jasonia because of its location.

We'd still be an empire even if we lose some of our useless land. We still would have a lot of unused land even if we got decreased. The argument for decreasing Shireroth's land was less in the past, but since we are less active now, Ryan has more of an excuse to dramatically decrease our land. For comparison, our land is probably ~3 times as large as Lovely is, and Lovely has 50,000 citizens, with probably ~100-200 active citizens given its forums. This is not about nationalism, this is about realism. The proposals for our reduction currently are VERY modest - take advantage now.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:06 pm

After reading these points, I've decided to lend this measure my support, not that it matters because I don't have a Landsraad vote and I have very little influence.

Baron H4773r 3lfs0n wrote: but (as much as i hate to say it again) I agree with Baldwin

You hate to agree with me?

Post by **Scott of Hyperborea** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:17 am

Does someone with a noble title before their name want to propose this?

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:53 pm

I already put it before the Kaiser here.[/url]

Post by **Scott of Hyperborea** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:18 pm

Give the Landsraad something to do for once.

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:16 pm

I wasn't aware the Landsraad had the power to strip nobility.

Giving up land

Giving up land

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