The Bacchic Debate

[Bacchus]

Honourable Chairman or Moderator, Shirerithians, friends, guests, visitors and anyone else I may have forgotten.

I would like to formally open the floor to a debate on any topic related to the Cult of Bacchus, of which I am High Priest. I feel that already, despite being a presence in Shireroth for only a few days, Dionysus' message and the mission of the cult itself has been perverted by misunderstanding and misrepresentation, which is no-one's fault and is mainly due to a lack of communication on my part. I think people assume there is no theological or philosophical backing behind the Cult- for which there is no need, by the way may I stress, due to the ineffable will of the god being the cult's main support and indeed the source of the rites- which is quite simply untrue. There is such a foundation, though I haven't quite fully worked it out yet, because Dionysus' will comes from within a man's deepest darkest inner part and is therefore hard to interpret and turn into words and concepts which make sense. That said, I want to open a debate anyway to help get me thinking and producing such a basis. The aim of this endeavour is therefore twofold: to expand the Bacchic mysteries in Shireroth through my interpretation of the gods will, and to educate people.

If anyone has any particular criticism or comment about Bacchus and his rites, I would be happy to answer them, or I could come with an opening statement which could be tackled by the experienced debators we have here in Shireroth.

Alternatively, I offer the following proposition to this institution and its faculty. You could declare the Bacchic cult to not be a subject fit for discussion, spurn this humble voice and his maenads, turn away from the light and embrace blissful ignorance, which would presumably be an acceptable thing to do since it is what the majority of people do in any circumstance. Given the reception from the intellectuals of Shireroth to the Bacchic rites so far, I would suggest this would in fact be the appropriate course of action.

[Allot]

A most reasonable and appropriate subject to debate, I feel. And here is my response:

I believe that the cult of Bacchus has been shunned by the nobles of Shireroth so far because of your approach that the cult takes to bringing in new members. This business of "freeing the imprisoned" and such gives you an air of superiority which generally no one is pleased by, (I speak from personal experience). Perhaps the cult would be more successful if it were to adopt a more...pleasant tone.

Furthermore,

Given the reception from the intellectuals of Shireroth to the Bacchic rites so far, I would suggest this would in fact be the appropriate course of action.

Pity pleas won't work either.

In any case, this is truly an excellent topic for debate, and I encourage all the scholars we have here to participate.

[Bacchus]

Thank you for that. A step forward for Shireroth and the Bacchic cult together, surely.

Now, the point you have raised regarding supposed superiority. It is an important one, and I recognise why and how. The solution is simple: given the fact that people object to being treated in such a manner, one must refrain, it's pretty much impossible to argue someone out of being offended. Nonetheless, I would like to present my reasons for the action taken in the first place, so that the mission of this debate can be furthered and we can grow to understand one another.

The main reason is quite easy to understand I think. An urge, a feeling, a whisper, a shadow which exists in all of us- this is Dionysus. He speaks to all of us. I have listened, recieved the rites, and now it is my duty to pass them on to others.* The trick with people is they are looking for the truth (see note below- Bacchus calls to them). My language is simply a way of demonstrating to people the importance of what I say (see Scott's blog entry here). Bacchus really is the truth, so I can't simply say, "You know, Bacchus is kind of the only way you can get a true experience of the self..." because people won't pay any heed. My hand was forced, an experience I am used to thanks to my interactions with the god, and so I came up with words about freedom and slavery which usually stir up serious emotions in people.

Further, this leads to my second point. The whole freedom-slavery thing is a central point of Bacchic worship. I wish the terminology was not a) so cliched and b) so melodramatic, but I don't know what else to say. Without the knowledge of the rites, people are trapped without knowing it. You are not defined by your society, you are not defined by what you do, you are not defined by who you are. An important aspect of Dionysian faith is the knowledge that you are defined by one thing alone, which defines everyone else- union under Bacchus. Hold on, I hear you cry, does that mean you're not special? Different? Unique? Quite right! Heck, even Bacchus the god can be impossible to distinguish from his worshippers, often depicted in works of art as being in amongst his followers who are none the wiser. In fact, the reason why these ideas are so cliched in the first place is because they are based on some fundamental thing in all of our lives, which I recognise as Bacchus.

That was a pretty Bacchus-heavy explanation, but I hope it helped you understand. If you didn't get any part of it, please quote it; it's probably a miscommunication on my part that has caused the problem; then I can set about rethinking it.

*By the way, might I make a complex digression here. In my interpretation, and that of the Achaeans nearly two and a half thousand years ago, the feeling I describe translates as a god, Bacchus, the bull-horned son of Zeus et cetera. Not all of those who truly experience the calling of the god, I'm sure, would agree. That irrepressible feeling of wanderlust or restlessness that urges you to find the truth in the world, what people call without explanation simply the nature of man, that in Bacchic worship is Bacchus calling you, from within, to find him. The realisation that we are all, I dunno, without substance or individuality, this is the first step towards the rites. The dance unites us all. Ever seen Fight Club? "You are not your job, your furniture, your condo et cetera, you are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world." Never truer when applied to Bacchic worship.

[Allot]

I think the essential problem (that you've already semi-identified) here is that your basis for your arguments - while being quite logical and valid - are mostly based on a Dionysian belief foundation (which non-Dionysians find hard to accept). I think that because the Dionysian and Apollonian viewpoints are so different it's impossible to logically argue either to the opposite side. But then again, that problem exists in pretty every religion.

As an aside:

An important aspect of Dionysian faith is the knowledge that you are defined by one thing alone, which defines everyone else- union under Bacchus.

:S That's frighteningly ...neo-fascist, to put it one way.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

The Bacchic rites represent a reaction against the futility of existence and the inevitability of oblivion, that is not in itself harmful - indeed debauchery can be positively beneficial for adjusting the perspective of those who would otherwise be inclined to take life too seriously. We must however also remember that this belief system gives far too much licence to the plebs and proles to abandon their drudgery upon which the Middle and Upper Classes depend for the supporting of their leisure time in a functioning and hierarchical society (and society cannot be non-functioning and hierarchical or non-hierarchical and functioning), applied leisure time which, since the very beginning of urban civilisation has been instrumental in human progress. Civilisation is a coercive social structure, out of necessity a complex structure demands the subordination of some and their relegation to the most menial roles - human progress rests upon the silent misery of the greater part of humanity, ever must it remain so - humans are too transient and ineffectual in their own right to be accorded unlimited freedom without the whole fabric of humanity fraying and coming apart.

To put it another way, if the Bacchic rites were followed universally then wine production would collapse for there would have been no sullen peasants to gather in the grapes and to trample them in the wine presses for next to no return - thus Baachus would have defeated himself.


Within our local context the Cult of Bacchus should be tolerated, but within controlled bounds, say the bounds of Yardistan, where everything is already pretty-much a free-form anarchy.

[Bacchus]

Allot, you're right. It's the fundamental problem with any discussion involving religion, as you say. There is a basis for it, though, outside of Bacchus; read Ardashir's post. It can be called a philosphical or biological/neurological need, I think. And regarding neo-fascism- Bacchus has been around saying the same thing for a few millenia now, he outdates even proto-fascism, so while I appreciate the observation is scary, it is best to consider the ultimate end. Neo-fascism: a state. Bacchism: a dance. Nothing to fear, I hope.

The Bacchic rites represent...humanity fraying and coming apart.

This man understands Bacchus better than I do! (Although the angle he takes on it is... for want of a better word, a bit Ardashiran. )

To put it another way, if the Bacchic rites were followed universally then wine production would collapse for there would have been no sullen peasants to gather in the grapes and to trample them in the wine presses for next to no return - thus Baachus would have defeated himself.

Within our local context the Cult of Bacchus should be tolerated, but within controlled bounds, say the bounds of Yardistan, where everything is already pretty-much a free-form anarchy.

When the rites were originally revealed in ancient Greece, it must be remembered they were introduced as part of a patheon of gods. All the cults demanded attention- and most of them recieved it due to the occupation of the worshipper, e.g. Hephaestus, god of metallurgy, craftsmen etc. would get attention from blacksmiths and sculptors. Of the faithful, most were not in the situation where their main concern was plays and wine, instead directing their prayers first to the god who would likely make them the most money. Even when you devoted yourself to one god, you were expected to offer prayers to all the gods merely out of respect to their power. And so, the issue was dealt with in that context. However, it is a serious problem here, I appreciate that.

I officially hold that Bacchus calls to all equally and that any attempt to subdue the rites would be disastrous. I do agree that practically some kind of line ought to be drawn, but I cannot guarantee that Bacchus will not call others who I do not teach the rites- after all, he is always calling everyone, and if I begin to falter in my duties it is likely he will choose another more able. That said, I think I can agree to a selected portion of the population to proselytise, since Dionysus accepted this in the days of Zeus and all the other Olympians. Nonetheless I am unwilling to completely remove the rites from the nation except for Yardistan, as Yardistani anarchism and the Bacchic rites are two different things and I would hate for them to be lumped together in the memories of the people.

How about the Cult and Shireroth make a deal. The Bacchic rites will be limited to Yardistan, and one thread per Duchy (which I have already started in Brookshire, Elwynn and Kildare) where occasionally the High Priest will post a bit about the great dance and the Maenads. All hunts and more important rituals will take place in Yardistan.

[Bacchus]

By the way, on re-review:

(and society cannot be non-functioning and hierarchical or non-hierarchical and functioning)

Have you ever heard of a micronation Ardashir? :P

[Aurangzeb Khan]

By the way, on re-review:

(and society cannot be non-functioning and hierarchical or non-hierarchical and functioning)

Have you ever heard of a micronation Ardashir? :P

Have you ever heard of a micronation resembling anything so much as a society as opposed to a fleeting clash of liberated superegos operating in an electrical void filled with the ephemeral spectres born of the deranged imaginings of the aforesaid superegos?

[Aurangzeb Khan]

How about the Cult and Shireroth make a deal. The Bacchic rites will be limited to Yardistan, and one thread per Duchy (which I have already started in Brookshire, Elwynn and Kildare) where occasionally the High Priest will post a bit about the great dance and the Maenads. All hunts and more important rituals will take place in Yardistan.

Sounds good. I think generally that this sort of thing is best kept in Yardistan:

there was no crime, no deed of shame, wanting. More uncleanness was committed by men with men than with women. Whoever would not submit to defilement, or shrank from violating others, was sacrificed as a victim. To regard nothing as impious or criminal was the sum total of their religion. The men, as though seized with madness and with frenzied distortions of their bodies, shrieked out prophecies; the matrons, dressed as Bacchae, their hair dishevelled, rushed down to the Tiber River with burning torches, plunged them into the water, and drew them out again, the flame undiminished because they were made of sulphur mixed with lime. Men were fastened to a machine and hurried off to hidden caves, and they were said to have been taken away by the gods. These were the men who refused to join their conspiracy or take part in their crimes or submit to their pollution.

[Bacchus]

That wasn't an account of the Bacchic rites, but of a stress-busting weekend recently undertaken by Max Mosley. (I have it on good authority that he has learnt from his past mistakes and has had his back shaved.)

Have you ever heard of a micronation resembling anything so much as a society as opposed to a fleeting clash of liberated superegos operating in an electrical void filled with the ephemeral spectres born of the deranged imaginings of the aforesaid superegos?

I really really want to say yes...

Anyway, now that this accord has been informally affirmed between us two, a priest of Bacchus will write up some simple terms to be presented to the Dukes of every Duchy. Hopefully this will secure long-lasting peace and unity, as well as allowing Bacchus' truth to be experienced and enjoyed by some at the very least.

[Jacobus Loki]

So good to see our culture and society conitune to grow, and to accept the odd.

and embrace blissful ignorance

Sufficient consumption of spiritus fermenti wil naturally bring this about.

This is also a wonderful opportunity for the economy, as the inebrieated will buy darn near anything.

The Cult should also pay a tax to the Duke of Yardistan to prevent the uninitiated (sober) from rifiling the possesions of the cultists.

Or not.