Liam Sinclair, MNN de-list KZFO, then TMW, then ban Foghorn

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

For those of you who haven't been keeping up with the news, here's the story so far:

In the MNN news feed, KZFO and the Micronational Wulaptonachgat have long been staples, providing the best in Antican and Shirerithian news, and very popular among the masses. This past week, KZFO began redistributing the shows done by the INS News Service and Radio Free Woodstania. Accompanying this addition (which, in and of itself, is not an unusual thing to see on the feed) was a Wulaptonachgat article painting KZFO as a "pirate station", rebroadcasting these recordings "without permission". The idea was to cash in on the popular idea of piracy, and the notion of "fighting the man", and boost the listenership through the new marketing strategy.

Legally, KZFO falls under the same "safe harbor" protection from prosecution under the United States' DMCA as Google News does. In fact, the MNN feed itself uses the same "safe harbor" to continue its own operation. A recent court ruling upheld the ability for third parties (Google, in this case) to redistribute and rebroadcast news and other content so long as proper attribution is given. KZFO's feed has been retrofitted in order to comply with this provision. Further, international rulings to date state that companies only need to comply with copyright laws that exist in the country that the server resides in, which secures our legality worldwide, as our servers are located in San Fransisco (or thereabouts, they keep moving).

Unfortunately, Liam Sinclair of the MNN believes that KZFO is in fact violating copyright law, arguing that since the MNN is based in Australia, we should comply with their laws as well. This view has not been upheld in the international legal system to date. Despite arguments to the contrary, as well as the argument that while KZFO follows all copyright laws in the US the other radio shows on the MNN blatantly disregard basic copyright laws on a regular basis and have not been removed, he has chosen to remove KZFO from the MNN on the rationale that he won't allow shows that disregard copyright to be allowed on the feed.

This alone wouldn't get me feathers in a ruffle too much, as our listener base (about 70 people) hasn't been affected. However, since that day, he has also removed the Micronational Wulaptonachgat, the #1 news source for Antican news and (often) Shirerithian news, and banned me from the mncentre.net forums, giving me no redress to this problem.

I admit that both sides of this conflict are partially at fault, my stubborn and often abrasive debate style and his general dislike for me and my contributions to this hobby are at odds and don't help the situation. However, personal issues should not conflict to such an extent that the hobby as a whole suffers, as is currently happening.

There are a few news articles available for those who are interested, and an open letter is currently on the Antican Liberatorasking Liam to undo these changes. The Antican government as a whole is considering a response to this incident.

I just thought I'd bring it to your attention, as it's kinda a big issue.

[Andreas the Wise]

That is worrying. Stopping Shirithian and Antican news articles. As your Baron, Nick, I say we go to the Steward and demand retribution immediately!

As a diplomat, however, I'd like to check more of the arguments before doing anything drastic. Not that I don't trust you Nick, but I know just how quickly micronational disputes can blow out of proportion, so I'd want to check the facts before I did anything. However, the easiest thing to me would seem to talk to the INS (I know some of the founders, particuraly Will and Spangle, they're both nice) and see what they think of what you're doing with their broadcasts. If they're happy, then brilliant, tell Liam that there's no copyright and move on. If they're not, come back and we'll see what your next step is.

[Jacobus Loki]

Sinclair is difficult to deal with when his "back is up". He sees MNN as his "living room", and wants to make rules accordingly.

We work together on microwiki. I will ask him for an explanation from his own nimble fingers.

I have been concerned about MNN's near-monopoly of various micronational services. Personalities get in the way more often than is necessary.

[Jacobus Loki]

UPDATE-

I have made a public post to the MNN board. I am approaching the matter as a mistake and a mis-understanding, and have suggested a return to the status quo ante.

Let us hope that this resolves the situation.

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

That is worrying. Stopping Shirithian and Antican news articles. As your Baron, Nick, I say we go to the Steward and demand retribution immediately!

As a diplomat, however, I'd like to check more of the arguments before doing anything drastic. Not that I don't trust you Nick, but I know just how quickly micronational disputes can blow out of proportion, so I'd want to check the facts before I did anything. However, the easiest thing to me would seem to talk to the INS (I know some of the founders, particuraly Will and Spangle, they're both nice) and see what they think of what you're doing with their broadcasts. If they're happy, then brilliant, tell Liam that there's no copyright and move on. If they're not, come back and we'll see what your next step is.

The INS sent us a takedown notice that we complied with, their show is no longer on our network.

Not that it does anyone any good, they got less than 10% of our listeners to listen to it anyway.

[hypatias mom]

I enjoyed listening to the feed, and am saddened that this link has now been severed. I hope and trust that this misstep will be reversed in the near future. It seems unreasonable that such a small hobby-base should be so jealous of its little corner of micronationalism that it will horde the broadcasts in its own claws. If it benefits the hobby, keeps us informed, and complies with the laws of the US, I don't understand why it is no longer to be available to all of us.

[Jacobus Loki]

(Audible sigh)

Mr. Sinclair has his good side. He is not showing it now.

I urge my fellow Shirithians to lower their use of MNN-functions in solidarity withg Nick. Let's use that time and energy to build His Niftyness's realm.

[Jess]

I never posted on the MNN (partially because I'm banned, but, thats a matter for another time, but I COULD OF USED A PROXY) anywho, I don't believe in copyrights, they sometimes make no sense. I am suggesting that we make our own intermicronational board, no rules, all micronational talk.

[Kaiser Mors V]

I personally have no interest in creating such a thing. Perhaps the government of Shireroth should make a statement on the issue.

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

Your niftiness,

If you'll be so kind as to check your email inbox, I have a question for you. Please let me know what you think.

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

There's a new newscast involving an interview on this subject.

http://www.nafticon.net/zulu5oscar/Down ... astNo6.mp3

[Andreas the Wise]

Well Nick, to be honest, the INS is just starting, and the principal of it is very good (finally a news service not controlled by one person, which for the last few years has been Liam anyway, and instead one that can be added by everyone). Give them time to build up a base.

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

I'm more than happy to, and I'd also be happy carrying their shows (as poor as they are at the moment) if they let me. But they issued a takedown notice, and we had to comply. So that's the end of that.

[hypatias mom]

While I think your perspective has logic and merit on its side, the fact that you did not create the webcasts that you linked to makes them scream. You will have to come to some accommodation with them so all microntionalists can receive their broadcasts, which is, after all, the idea. We all want to know what is going on in micronations at large, because we get rather miopic if we stay just within our own little nations, as great as they are. Good interview, and good arguments.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Liam posted a response to Jacobus in MNN in which he claims Foghorn was banned because of "heinous personal attacks".
I've asked him to come to this thread and give his side of the story, and I'm going to hold off judgment until he does. I suggest everyone else do the same.
Liam's stubborn and doesn't have a lot of (well, any) patience, but he's not the sort to do something stupid and vindictive for no reason.

I would just like to say that as micronationalists, and thus people supposedly simulating countries, we have a responsibility to respect each other and keep order among ourselves, rather than hiding behind macronational laws (which are almost never up to the task of regulating international online activities anyway). As such, I think Nick's using a foreign podcast without permission was a bad idea regardless of macronational law on the subject. MNN, as an amateur project and not a company with lots of lawyers, can hardly be blamed for taking the safe route and cutting anything that could be seen as an endorsement of it, even if Foghorn's right and the law ends out to technically be on his side. However, Foghorn's willingness to take it down when the owners complained speaks well of him, and I hope that MNN will acknowledge that he's done so and add him back to the feed.

[Jacobus Loki]

Attempts have been made to end this dispute. ck has published an open letter to liam and MNN.

As he is banned from there for reasons that seem questionable, and as open and free communication is the best way to end conflict, I have posted the letter along with my comments.

Both the letter and my introductory statements are reprduced below.

I am posting the letter below, with the permission of the author.

I believe it belongs here, and not buried in administrative minutae. An open and frank discussion needs to be had about the nature of the services provided, and the nature of the larger community.

The tone taken by the author is not argumenative. I urge everyone concerned to breathe deeply, park their egos as best they might, and think of the greater good of the community.

I further urge that a free, frank, and open discussion be held, and that administrators restrain themselves from locking threads and thus stifling debate.

Aside from my official capacity as Steward to His Niftyness, on a personal note:

My micronational past is "checkered" to say the least. As part of some of my "darker squares" I came in conflict with both of the principals involved in this conflict at different times, and perhaps under different guise. They are both tough fighters with strong opinions. They are also both intelligent, reasonable and good people. I am pleased to honor both of their talents and commitments to our larger community, and I urge them both to shake hands and end this dispute.

The letter follows:

Thursday, January 31, 2008
An open letter to Liam Sinclair of the MNN

Liam,

I don't believe that our personal differences and biases should negatively impact this hobby as much as they already have, so I am writing you this open letter, offering you the olive branch of peace, and hoping that you will undo the detrimental changes you have enacted.

Our argument started with KZFO, so I shall try to rationally and legally explain the position we are in. I have vetted this argument with the local legal counsel, and he has ensured its validity.

The KZFO podcast has always striven to aggregate all of the micronational radio shows in one feed. That was its stated purpose all those years ago. Yes, it initially started as my Radio Nafticon, but it has morphed and evolved, like all good news sources must. As an aggregator, it falls within the same legal realm as Google News and your own MNN feed, at least within the United States. In order to be compliant with US law, we are required to attribute all sources other than our own, which we do if you'll check the feed, and respond to "takedown notices", which we have done in the past. Therefore, KZFO (the feed) is 100% compliant with US copyright laws.

Further, international copyright law dictates that, in the case of the internet, one only needs to comply with the laws set forth in the nation where the servers for the content reside. For example, allofmp3.com was able to distribute copyrighted music for drastically reduced fees without paying the RIAA because they operated out of Russia, and the laws in that country (at the time) enabled such actions. Because of this legal precedent, so long as we are compliant with US laws, we are compliant with all other nation's laws as well, Australia inclusive.

As for KZFO the content, we use "podsafe music", music that the artist has specifically granted rights over for use in online media, such as ours, stipulating that certain attribution is given, which we do for every show. The other shows on the MNN, such as the two shows in question for this conflict, blatantly violate international copyright law, and yet no repercussions are felt by them. I feel that this example perfectly outlines the reason why I was so perturbed by your decision to remove KZFO from your feed, the fact that this action seems to indicate an anti-Foghorn bias in an organization that claims to be an open forum and a place for all of the micronational news to be seen.

You have compounded this opinion by your recent removal of the Micronational Wulaptonachgat, recognized for years as the best source for Shirerithian, Antican, and other news, as well as an outlet for Z5O and my personal opinions as well. You have, in essence, cut off the rest of the micronational world from Antica, leaving them to search for Antican and Shirerithian news on their own, ignoring the purpose behind the MNN news feed.

Finally, you have given me no method of redress for these grievances in the mncentre.net forums, a place that is supposed to be the meeting ground for all of micronationalism to get together and discuss their issues and collaborate. I cannot even see the reasoning behind your recent ban and removal of TMW because the ban does not allow me to view the forums as a guest.

For my part, I apologize for my conduct in the MNN forums recently. I recognize that my posts may have been misread as ad hominem attacks on you specifically, and apologize for any pain and suffering you have endured. However, I do not believe that my conduct necessitates the obviously belligerent steps you have taken since then.

For the good of all of Micras, I ask that you undo what you have done. Reinstate the Micronational Wulaptonachgat in the MNN feed, along with KZFO, as it does not, as you claimed it did, violate any copyright laws, unlike many other news shows on the same feed. Additionally, I ask that you remove the ban on my account on mncentre.net's forum and make good on the forum's promise to be a meeting center for all to discuss topics of interest for the good of the community, and not simply "those people that Liam likes".

I await your response to my request, and hope that we can work together peaceably in the future.

-Nick "Foghorn" Leghorn

[Jacobus Loki]

Update:

Liam was quite pleased to inform me, that he had deleted my post, that as far as he is concerend the matter is closed, and "what part of closed don't you understand?".

OHHHHHHhhhhhhhh, the old Jacobus would have had fun with this...

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

OK, I tried playing nice. The gloves are about to come off.

Liam has 24 hours to respond to my letter before I start trying "alternate methods of persuasion".

[Andreas the Wise]

I was trying to find the letter but couldn't ...

Liam does know how stupid it is to make an enemy of Shireroth, doesn't he?

[Kaiser Mors V]

That is unacceptable behavior from one who has control of MNN.. I thought that was supposed to be an open forum for micronational matters.

[hypatias mom]

Apparently he has forgotten what "open forum" means, at least with regard to this particular issue. Is there any way of redrdessing this outrage, short of open rebellion?

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

I believe I've exhausted all the options at my disposal. The only redress I have left is, well, I'd rather not disclose the details, but it ends in tears.

[hypatias mom]

Nick--

I think your mature, measured requests should have been given due consideration and dealt with in a much different manner. You have the support of the Shirerithian people, I'm sure, in this. Don't give up on trying to do things right and above board.

[Andreas the Wise]

Yes Nick, you have my support in talking to Liam and resolving this, but you don't have my support in anything that would involve, say, damage to forums or the like. Though if you'd like to invade whatever country Liam's in, I could live with that ...

[Liam conToketi]

I believe I've exhausted all the options at my disposal. The only redress I have left is, well, I'd rather not disclose the details, but it ends in tears.

Their tears I hope...

[HIH Hesam Jahandar]

Ladies and Gents,

Just thought I'd show you the situation in Babkha regarding this matter. Not trying to dissuade you, just offering another opinion.

http://www.babkha.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7547

I disagree with Nick's point, but I believe a resolution can be made.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Er, as far as I can tell, Jacobus' post isn't deleted. You can see it here.

Liam says that KZFO will be reinstated after Foghorn assures Liam that it's not using other people's stuff anymore. That seems fair. I assume the same thing will happen to the Wulaptonagapeocaptoedaobituedacht or whatever. He also says that Foghorn was banned for "heinous personal attacks" - I've yet to see what those are, but if that's true he seems justified in keeping Foghorn banned for at least a little while. All in all, I don't see anything wrong here other than Liam being...well, Liam...and not worrying enough about public relations to explain himself properly.

If we act hastily, we certainly won't change MNN's mind (Liam's stubborn as a rock, and the rest of them always stick together), and will probably just make them angrier. We'll also give ourselves a reputation for short-temperedness and not really knowing what's going on. And since Liam's away for the next week anyway, acting quickly isn't going to do any good. I suggest we wait, see if KZFO gets reinstated after Foghorn informs Liam of the changes and Liam comes back, and then investigate what these "personal attacks" were and see if Iain or someone will unban Foghorn if he apologizes for them.

Two more things. There already is a second intermicronational community forum - http://www.micromaps.org/forum/index.php . It's not very good. And if the Wulaptonagapeocaptoedaobituedacht is such a venerable source of Shirerithian news, how come none of us have ever heard of it (except as something that existed a few years ago during the first incarnation of Antica)?

[Chrimigules]

That post isn't deleted, but there doesn't seem to be a trace of the one that Jacobus was referring to, which apparently should include in a quote box Nick's letter to Liam.

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

KZFO has been compliant with all copyright laws since this argument began. Liam's argument that we violate copyright law is absurd, as we take great pains to attribute every show, and every song of every show we produce, unlike other radio stations. If he's so particular about people stealing other people's work, then why is the INS Sketch Show and Radio Free Woodstania on the feed when they blatantly violate the copyright of at least 6 recording artists? Is this not the definition of discrimination?

And further, it has always been KZFO's purpose to aggregate the radio shows of the entire sector. The Ben Gray Show, Radio Free Zemlya, and even Scott's radio show have all been on the feed, yet Liam hasn't done so much as lift a finger until now. In fact, we received a takedown notice from the INSSS which was complied with immediately, before the bans and removals took place, which completely invalidates Liam's claim.

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

Two more things. There already is a second intermicronational community forum - http://www.micromaps.org/forum/index.php . It's not very good. And if the Wulaptonagapeocaptoedaobituedacht is such a venerable source of Shirerithian news, how come none of us have ever heard of it (except as something that existed a few years ago during the first incarnation of Antica)?

I never said it was any good, I just said that we provide Shirerithian news as well