Imperial Decree #180: Our temporary statement of neutrality.

[Kaiser Alejian I]

I have been away from Shireroth this weekend. It was an undeclared leave of absense yes, but it was short, and I had a Steward to take care of any minor issues. I thought: "Nothing bad could happen in two days..."Now I know nothing is further from the truth. I come back to find the GC and this newly formed SPEAR at each other's throats, and both desperately trying to get US involved.WHAT'S MORE, I FIND OUT WE'VE BEEN INCLUDED INTO A TREATY (SPEAR) WITHOUT MY PRIOR KNOWLEDGE!Yes. That's right. The leader of Shireroth had been given ~NO~ prior knowledge of this, nor was he asked if indeed he WANTED Shireroth to be involved. To this end I am EXTREMELY insulted. I don't have any solid proof as to who included us, and I would like a SPEAR representative to come forward and tell me who was acting on Shireroth's behalf without our consent.TO THIS END, after much debate with my advisors and my Steward, I have decided to veto both the Mango-Camel treaty AND the SPEAR ratification treaty untill I find out more information as to why on Micras we should care about either of you. This is our official temporary statement of neutrality, don't take it personally GC or SPEAR or any nations involved.Any statements, questions, or general weirdness may be posted below, but if it degrades into a flame war, or anything similiar, then I will close this thread.

[Liam Sinclair]

Kaiser,Atteran PM Klosso conveyed to me at the start of this issue regardng SPEAR that Shireroth's representative in the negotiations was Mr. Siskind. Sir Liam Sinclair, K.S.G.Kingdom of Gotzborg | Minister of State, Home Office

[Harvey the Blue]

Quote:Just to clarify: is the old Mango-Camel pact between Babkha and Shireroth still intact for the GC-Shireroth relations?For the moment. See here: p211.ezboard.com/fshirero...=470.topic Harvey SteffkeSai'Kar's Memories LiveJournal - ranting about Shirerothian issues since fall 2004.

[Tahmaseb]

Yes, I saw that. But as the Kaiser can overrule everything I thought it'd be better to hear it from him.

[Kaiser Alejian I]

to be honest, right now im sick of this issue period, so I think I will allow that landsraad to pass that dissolution of our treaty. I understand you couldn't tell us, but that doesnt mean we cant feel sore about it. You couldn't even have secretly let us know? This I cannot overlook.

[Gryphon the Pure]

The dissolution of the Mango-Camel pact will probably need a more formal endorsement from the Kaiser, as it was set in place by Kaiserial decree. Gryphon the Pure- Shirithian Elder - Dutch of Kildare - Minister of the Interior - High Priest of Apostrophe aka Grammar Fuhrer - Director of the Shirithian Census - Imperial Advisor -q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);

[Kaiser Alejian I]

Wait, it was put in place by a decree? Then why the PRH didn't anyone catch that?

[Ari Rahikkala]

Joseph just did. Jag har glömt hur pjäserna stod!

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Just a few things. First, you were informed of this. See p211.ezboard.com/fshirero...=135.topic (this link will only work if you have SEP access). Second, the treaty is a final draft of negotiation. We are not officially included until we ratify it; this is standard procedure in all treaties. Third, the treaty was leaked (apparently to Mr. Sinclair) before it was supposed to get out; had it gotten out at the right time, you would have been fully briefed on the results of the negotiations.

[Kaiser Alejian I]

Don't EVEN try and pass this off as something I knew about.1) That thread is over a month old.2) IN that month, I was told of nothing and had no updates. I assumed the attempt had died. Why didn't you inform me it was still coming along?3) I never said I would like it or approve.

[Draco the Tainted]

Neither did you say you would disapprove. If I recall correctly, your reaction was one of amused neutrality.And I certainly remember it having been negotiated in that forum later, though the posts have been caught in this EzBoard shredder. If anything, a report was given the next day with indication that the SPANK proposal was still in production. I'm sure you responded, but, again, "cannot be restored".Oh, and in case you didn't get this already, when it comes to SHINE, assume nothing. Heil Loki!!!
Heil H'Graa!!!

[Kaiser Alejian I]

I was told of nothing. Whether you believe it or not.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

That thread may be a month old, but this has been in planning for a month, and it contains all the relevant information. A group of aligned nations to counter the Commonwealth. Somewhat looser than the GC structure. Antica, Attera, Natopia, Lavalon, and ourselves brought up as members. A mention that it would be negotiated in the Antican forums. Based around political, military, and economic aid. Them inviting me to negotiate Shireroth's part in it. Every single element of SPEAR was right there.I did not give you updates because nothing was happening. There was a lot of random wording being argued about, but everyone basically just accepted a very standard, humdrum document that said we would do the things that post said we did. Eventually we came to something of a decision. I would have informed you that we were done, but the Atterans and Natopians jumped the gun and went public early, on a weekend when I was away. They also erroneously reported Shireroth was a member, when in fact Shireroth was just one of the nations that they were hoping to get as members.The intent of SPEAR was that Shireroth would have some input into a document it could later decide whether or not to approve. This intent has been kept.

[Kaiser Alejian I]

Of course, I am not an unreasonable man. If you produce a good arguement I may be convinced otherwise. Edited by: Kaiser Alejian I at: 5/31/05 16:03

[VA Foghorn]

Sir, I'm the Antican Foreign Affairs archon, and the Dinarchs didn't even tell me about it's completion until about the time the news story broke. As Scott so eloquently put it, the treaty has been undergoing slight changes in wording over the last month, but in spirit it has been the same document that Octavius showed me one fine afternoon at my house a month ago.

[Harvey the Blue]

In any event, the public nor Landsraad will be having any input into our future within the M-C Pact or the SPEAR treaty. Our Lord Kaiser has decided to take this matter of our foreign affairs into his personal power, and to take his time in making his decision in order to better evaluate our options and see if the true colors of our potential allies show themselves. Harvey SteffkeSai'Kar's Memories LiveJournal - ranting about Shirerothian issues since fall 2004.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Which is not such a bad move. Neutrality is a very good thing, and no doubt in time the situation will clear itself to such a degree that Shireroth can better figure out where its interests lie. As much as I wish the treaty had been passed, it is nice to see a Kaiser taking full control on an important issue once in a while.

[Gryphon the Pure]

Quote:we thought you simply wouldn't care that much.You realize you're talking about a resolution annexing what remnants of Apollo you can find and plotting to annex the rest later to the nation that inherited Apollo and swore never to give up land?Sometimes the pen can be mightier than the sword, so just because you choose to lay down your sword doesn't mean you aren't designed to conquer. Gryphon the Pure- Shirithian Elder - Dutch of Kildare - Minister of the Interior - High Priest of Apostrophe aka Grammar Fuhrer - Director of the Shirithian Census - Imperial Advisor -q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);

[Tahmaseb]

But Erik himself said countless times that Shireroth is not Apollo. When has this changed?

[Chimaera the Wise]

We are certainly not Apollo, but that doesn't change the fact that we PWN Apollo : p.*disclaimer: I don't speak for Shireroth. Shutting up now. You must only try to realize the truth - There is no sig.

[Tahmaseb]

Kaiser,The most important reason we didn't tell you is that we thought you simply wouldn't care that much. This whole thing has really gone out of proportions we didn't think was possible. We thought it as a sort of natural development thing and never dreamt about it being a sort of satanist conspiracy to take over the world. Because it isn't.Speaking as a Babkhan, have you ever seen us really attacking anywhere? We've done a fair bit of recwars, sure, we even coined the word. But real attacks? Nope, that has been the job of our opponents. And would we join a commonwealth which is ready to use attack as anything else than the last means of defence? Absolutely not. This isn't a Commonwealth designed to conquer. Therefore it is not a threat for Shireroth or anyone else. Edited by: Tahmaseb Shah at: 5/31/05 22:06

[Gryphon Avocatio]

It changes whenever a vocal minority decides the government is wrong and we are Apollo, then those of us who know the truth have to run around silencing Bill and his supporters, only to find that no matter how much duct tape we use they will always manage to convince some one they are speaking the truth.Anyway, I don't think that Shireroth would have been too upset over the whole GC thing if the GC hadn't gone and said things along the lines of "we are trying to counter Shirerothian influence." Something about us being long time allies seems to imply that they should not be trying to impede us, at least according to the angry parties. Personally, I don't give a damn about what Babkha does. They are their own nation, and we, ours. Let them do what they will. I doubt that they truly pose any harm to Shireroth if we are as strong as we claim to be. As for this SPEAR issue, I think it's a bunch of crap. We don't need to be countering anything. I doubt Babkha is about to break the MCP simply because they've organized a bloc around themselves. This is a result of hypervigilance.Some things are clear. Scott should have been more forthcoming about what was going on, somebody in the government other than him should have known that SPEAR was actually progressing (the threads in the SEP do not suggest this). Moreover, Scott probably should have had formal approval to work on this (I haven't found any). Whoever told us we were involved with it should have gotten the facts straight and seen that we had never ratified such a thing. Mostly, though, I think that this just shows how stupid revenge can be. SPEAR is a good way to backstab the Babkhans for backstabbing us, but I don't really feel that it's clear that they did anything harmful.But, hey, foreign policy is not my forte. I should go to sleep. It's too late to be rambling about this. 3e knowe ek that in fourme of speche is chaunge / With-inne a thousand 3eer, and wordes tho / That hadden pris now wonder nyce and straunge / Us thenketh hem, and 3et thei spake hem so, / And spedde as wel in loue as men now do...Edited by: Gryphon Avocatio  at: 6/1/05 2:58

[osmose1000]

I think that the reason everyone is so pissed that you didn't tell us is because of Iain. He's our MiniEx, and for him to keep something like that a secret is totally unacceptable. The ally thing is also a factor, but relations are always bumpy every now and then. Hypatia's Mom: Yay! I'm legal now.Moose: WE(Shireroth) HAVE NON-NOBLES?![21:11] Bill7D0: It's 9:11 PM. Do you know where your plane is?

[osmose1000]

So it is good that he betrayed one nation in favor of another? To Babkhans, he might seem loyal, but to Shireroth, he is nothing but a traitor. That's why dual citizenship cannot work if one holds a position in the government of both nations. Hypatia's Mom: Yay! I'm legal now.Moose: WE(Shireroth) HAVE NON-NOBLES?![21:11] Bill7D0: It's 9:11 PM. Do you know where your plane is?

[Gryphon the Pure]

Since when was "in charge of" the "Shirerithian spy circle" supposed to come with the job of MiniEx? True, our Minister of the Exterior has traditionally been the head of SHINE, but that tradition is also formed under the assumption that Giant Squid is our Minister of the Exterior.SURPRISE! The European Union is now known as the Communist States of Al Quaedastan! Sorry we didn't tell the US about it, we thought they'd be happy to hear! It's a Surprise! Get it? Surprise! Hahahahaha!Saying that it was supposed to be a surprise doesn't make it anything less of a betrayal. Gryphon the Pure- Shirithian Elder - Dutch of Kildare - Minister of the Interior - High Priest of Apostrophe aka Grammar Fuhrer - Director of the Shirithian Census - Imperial Advisor -q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);

[extreme007]

well, to add my two-karnals into this whole thing that doesnt really matter to me much, it seems to me osmose1000, that while you were trying to blame Iain for doing something like that, you have actually done the opposite by gloryfying him. Your statement just shows that Iain can keep his two (or more i dont know) citizenship roles separate and does not mix them in manners that would/should be deemed unacceptable.Now, if he had told of something "secret" his other government/nation is working on, then in reality, he'd be a 'traitor' to that nation, and would/should be considered a Shirerithian spy acting in that nation. And since he is a MiniEx and not a part of the Shirerithian spy circle (i dont know if this is true, so excuse me if i am wrong), it not his job to inform of such things either. (Now, if he were a spy then perhaps, there is a chance of him letting Shireroth know).In my eyes, one would not be able to find a better dual-citizen that Iain here.Thank you for reading, now carry on with your arguments, while i go and eat this mango icecream.EDIT: whooops.. with all these threads around, i didn't realise i was speaking in the Kaiser's Court....*showers the Kaiser with a box full of Mango Icecreams* Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,Advance Science,Advance Extremism,(in Karnali, Republic of)Edited by: extreme007  at: 6/1/05 8:47

[Sir Iain de Vembria]

The whole point is that there has been no betrayal in the first place.The only people who are persisting with claiming that there was are those who are doggedly repeating the Scott/Bill propaganda/rhetoric/lies that whole thing was an evil Babkha plot ad nauseum, in the obvious hope that everyone else will believe them, while failing to produce a single shred of actual evidence to back up their baseless claims. Chairman of the Sovereign Order of TreesiaBaron of Lothlaria, Count of Mondesia & MiniEx in ShirerothOther things too from time to time

[Sir Iain de Vembria]

Thank you Extreme.Now, on the subject of the Shirerithian spy circle, I was supposed to be in charge of it when I accepted the offer from Scott to become Minister of the Exterior (as it was supposed to come with the job). However, I was deliberately excluded from it from the beginning, inspite of repeated attempts to get Scott to fulfil his original promises, because, as I discovered only much later (and according to Scott) that it already knew about the original merger plan (i.e. the one that Arminy and Antica were invited to join - before they quit and Babkha was invited to join as a replacement).Oh, and Moose, no nations were betrayed. Everyone who was supposed to know about the Grand Commonwealth knew about it at the time they were supposed to know about it - except of course for those spies (and remember it was supposed to be a surprise for some people, who seem unable or unwilling to understand that small but vital fact). Chairman of the Sovereign Order of TreesiaBaron of Lothlaria, Count of Mondesia & MiniEx in ShirerothOther things too from time to timeEdited by: Sir Iain de Vembria  at: 6/1/05 9:10

[Gryphon the Pure]

Babkha plot aside, if you're going to annex Apollo, AT LEAST do it through a foundation rather than a nation composed of one of the greatest opponents to Apollo ever?Not to mention the whole three nations fighting a war over Velike and suddenly "yoink!" like it didn't matter. That was a huge "fuck you" to Shireroth and SNARL.Bottom line: I hate you guys, but that's no different than when you were called Babkha. The point is that you're insisting you've done nothing wrong when you obviously have. And various other things. School now. Bye. Gryphon the Pure- Shirithian Elder - Dutch of Kildare - Minister of the Interior - High Priest of Apostrophe aka Grammar Fuhrer - Director of the Shirithian Census - Imperial Advisor -q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);

[Tahmaseb]

I'm getting so fucking tired of saying this: GC isn't Babkha. It has five nations, one of them Treesia, part of Apollo. How could the GC then steal Apollo when it has parts of it in itself?