Fuck it.

[Daniel Farewell]

Your Majesty,
Your Excellencies,

I am afraid I have been away over the weekend. So I apologize for the lateness of this post.

Kaiser B'Caw I wrote:
The Elwynnese delegation may begin by laying out their concerns, both the ones that led to the secession in the first place, and those that they feel would need to be overcome in the event of reunification with Shireroth. The Shirerithian delegation will then respond with an initial assessment of how we would be willing to respond to those concerns. Depending on the level of general agreement, we may then identify points of contention or uncertainty and proceed to negotiations on those points.

[Edited out what, according to one Shirerithian delegate, was described as "meaningless rhetoric"]

Thus, in order for us to remain in a Shirerithian union of states and nations, Elwynn would see this constitutionally guaranteed:


1. Shireroth is to become a confederation of free states/nations in association.

2. The Kaiser remains a nominal figurehead of the confederation.

3. No feudalism on the confederal level.

4. Elwynn a nation in free association, never to be downgraded or denied its liberty.

5. These powers remain the jurisdiction of the Elwynnese authorities in Elwynn:

- immigration, borders, emigration
- civil and criminal law
- justice
- foreign affairs in matters of cultural and economic agreements
- militia of Elwynn.

With these guarantees being met, discussions can begin on the very structure and design of the confederal Shireroth.

[Ryan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2YDq6FkVE

Because it's just so fitting.

[Elliot Markham]

Sounds like YAMO.

[Daniel Farewell]

We were more thinking of a Shirerithianized United States under the articles of confederation...

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I've been thinking for a long time about what I'm still doing in micronations. It was an appropriate activity for a 14 year old, but now I'm 25, and when people see me on Shireroth and ask me what I'm doing and why I'm doing it, I can't even really explain it. If it's a game, it's not any fun; if it's a community, it's a community of people who mostly spend their time yelling at each other. There's some role-playing and political simulating, but it all seems very vague and not like the sort of thing someone would do voluntarily if they weren't already addicted to it.

The one part that I find really holding my interest is the cultural development. Not of Shireroth - our national culture has always been kind of forced and a little stupid - but of Hyperborea. I've also enjoyed seeing the cultural development of some of the other interesting regions of Shireroth, like Modan-Lach, MASS, Kildare, the Apostates Formerly Known As Straylight, and Alalehzamin -- and of some of the more developed areas in foreign powers, like Aryez.

This is basically what they officially call con-worlding, con-culturing, or world-building; the sort of thing they do at www.zompist.com. But this has always been a thankless and solitary pursuit, because nobody cares about anyone else's con-cultures and there's no way to get interesting interaction going.

Whatever micronations' original purpose was, it has long since been lost. I think a worthy new purpose would be as an area in which people create interesting con-cultures that interact with one another. I have been toying around with ideas for how to do this; for a long time my plan was to wait until Shireroth became too annoying to take any longer, then secede Hyperborea, nab Aryez from Antica and a few other similarly interesting regions, and try to create a new paradigm dedicated to small, mutually interacting one-person con-cultures (the working title was "Archipelago of Utopias", but whatever).

One of the big flaws with micronations as they currently exist is that they link political union, cultural union, and social union. Ashkenatzim who are interested in Jewish culture only talk on their off-topic to other Ashkenatzim, not to Shirerithians (although some Shirerithians can and do make separate accounts for the Ashkenatzi forum). Shireroth has an amazing soccer league, but it's only open to Shirerithians. The political and cultural differences in our community are what make it interesting, but they also fracture us unnecessarily.

The Archipelago project was an attempt to fix that. Everyone has their own little con-cultures going, but they're all on the same forum, and they all share off-topics, organizations like sports leagues, and all the other micronational projects we know and love. Furthermore, there is an in-character Senate, in which each statelet gets one vote, which is partly a policy-setting body and partly a role-playing body in which each culture displays its own concerns, style, and philosophy (for example, the Hyperborean delegation might constantly be trying to gather support for meddling in other statelets' affairs to promote peace and harmony).

From what Elwynn is saying, I am starting to think this might prove popular in Shireroth, and I wouldn't even have to secede to do it. In that spirit, here is the rough draft of the Archipelago project.

Everyone gets a one-person independent statelet. These statelets are in free association and can secede (after giving two weeks' notice) whenever they want without penalty, except that they can't unsecede for a month after seceding (to make sure they mean business and aren't just ragequitting to waste everyone's time). They can also do anything they want within the federation. They can attack other statelets, nullify laws, join together into subfederations within the larger federation, conduct independent foreign policy, or whatever.

Each statelet can set its own citizenship policy, which can include people having citizenship in more than one statelet. I might be the leader of Hyperborea, but also have citizenship in Goldenmoon and Eliria. Or I could institute a single-cit policy in Hyperborea and only accept people not in any other statelets. Presumably most statelets will have many shared citizens. The only requirement will be that each statelet have a unique representative to the Senate. Any statelet that is made up completely of multiple citizens can exist, but can't have any Senate representation unless one of them gives up Senate representation somewhere else.

The Senate has the power to accept new statelets, expel statelets it doesn't like, place sanctions on various statelets, interfere in internal affairs, and run all the various projects like the sports leagues and university and recwar league and whatever. It's also a center for role-playing, where people can propose totally in-character resolutions (usually involving federal territory) and the statelets can respond based on their philosophical and political ideologies (think like that Nation States game on Jennifer Government, only much better).

There's a prime minister or something elected by the Senate. Technically ze leads and does executive stuff, but really ze's just there so that there's an election and the different statelets can form alliances and have diplomacy deciding who to elect. There might also be a figurehead monarch or something.

In a world with many professional-looking stable micronations, Shireroth's competitive advantage has always been its subdivisions. If we shift to something closer to the spirit of the Archipelago Project, we regain that advantage and get a new purpose and a new plan.

[Harvey Steffke]

I've sort of seen this coming as the more obvious of the two paths Shireroth could take that would ensure its survival. We've been mostly there for some time now. It would mean that Shireroth isn't a micornation in the traditional sense, but is just a construct for allowing little projects, akin to the wiki structure that holds the wikistates together.

But Scott, Scott! Are you the same Scott that debated at the MCS about how splittling into two map organizations was akin to killing babies, because it divided the population meaninglessly? And are you the same Scott that engaged me in the "Following your Dreams" debate about the virtues of forming large countries vs. going off on your own? Why have you suddenly shifted opinion completely?

The problem with Shireroth currently and the problem with the archipelago project is that it would mean essentially the end of trying to cooperate and build upon eachother, basically forever. Scott, you're a great writer and your hyperborean cultural ideas are amazing, but they only benefit your Hyperborea when you come up with them. And Gman's MASSDIN was great, but it was only for his three Yardistan islands, and Jonas does a lot of amazing graphical work, but it's only for Kildare, and so on and so forth with everyone else's individual subdivisions. Nelaga doesn't have much, but what it does have benefits the whole country. When I do weird cultural stuff, it's for all of Nelaga. When Andreas works on the law and legal system, it's for all of Nelaga. When Fides comes up with a 3D model of something, it's for all of Nelaga. When (If!) Gman releases his mililitary structure thing, it will be for all of Nelaga. And when we occasionally do little roleplays or stories, it's collectively open to everyone in the country. Even if nothing we do ever really goes anywhere and is "pointless" in the micronational sense, at least we have that feeling of working together and always bouncing ideas off eachother.

Like, example. Nicholas came up with the idea of having the sky background from CoD2 animated on the Nelaga forum, and bugged me until I put up some clouds. Everyone said that my choice of clouds was bad, so I put up the other style, but I couldn't get them animated without looking choppy. Fides offered to make a better animated gif and Andreas was going to try a technical solution, but Ari said that an animated background would be obnoxious, and we all agreed. Then I came up with the idea of making the clouds change in relation with real-life time, and Ari hacked that up, and it works wonderfully and I love it. Is this the end? Maybe we'll want to tweak colors, or maybe we can use this idea to try other, similar things, or maybe we're all content with how it is right now. I don't know, and not knowing is beautiful in situations like this.

But a one-man state would have never gone through that process. Without anyone saying "I don't like this. We need to try something else" or "Hey, this gave me an idea..." a one-man state would just do the first thing that occurred to them and stop. There's something gained by working together that can never be gained if you decide to formally split for good. Nothing you did in Hyperborea would ever be challenged. Nobody would ever add to it. It would become more and more a reflection of only your ideas. I know you think that sounds great, but I think you know that it would eventually hit a cultural dead end because you'd be unwilling to change more and more of it because you didn't want to. And I know you'll say that you're the only one in Hyperborea or that cares about Hyperborea, and that's largely true, but this would seal the coffin for good, for you and for the rest of your little one-man states. Without an active national government, there'd be no real reason to continue. Ask Ryan about how many cultural-based micronations he's founded, attracted nobody to join, and grown bored of.

And this would be the end of Shireroth's growth, for good. Even if this plan of Scott's does succeed, there's no going back from this, much like we've not had a big pointless merger in years - general trends in micronations for the longest time has been more isolation and less interaction.

I've always thought that the much more difficult route of trying to get people to open up to eachother's subdivisions was the only stable long-term solution to the problem. I haven't made a whole lot of progress on this front, but I still think it's because I'm the only one that is thinking along those lines - everyone else wants what's best short-term.

Subdivisions are the best and worst part of Shireroth. Best, because it gets people into the country so they can enter a subdivision immediately. Worst, because they never want to leave and say hi to the neighbors. Maybe that sort of antisocial mentality fits Shireroth, but I, if I alone, insist it doesn't have to be like that.

I'm rambling and rushing, sorry, I've got work. Just wanted to get some thoughts in before I lost them.

Edited some more stuff in - don't kill Shireroth until I get home from work, blast it!

[Kaiser B'caw I]

You know... Cliched as it sounds, I think Harvey's given me an epiphany.

I've thought before that he'd had a point on this cultural fracturing thing; the stuff I've been doing with Sunderspray, and with Benacia, has been enjoyable in its way, but it's never seemed to go anywhere. People might stop by and comment "Hey, cool," but really, that's all. I can't think about that stuff all the time.

And reading what Harvey's said, I thought to myself... it wasn't always like that. I used to have an awful lot of fun with Benacia, a long time back. And there was a reason for that! It was back during the New Feudalism era, and I had been grouped with Fax... I think he became the Duke. His place was Naudia'Diva, which was right next door to Benacia. And we bounced stuff off each other... Magical systems, roleplaying, a little recwar. Stuff that didn't quite fit entirely into one place or the other, but pulled them both in, and generated cultural byproducts for both. And it didn't matter that much whether something happened in one or the other, because there weren't any county subforums at that point. Everything was there in the main Duchy forum. You could see it, respond to it, right there. Anyone who checked that forum's new posts would see it, without having to sift through a dozen subfora. The only flaw was that no one else besides Fax collaborated that closely; my god, think if a couple more people had got involved!

And I think of what would happen if Benacia ever became a statelet. I mean, Benacia'd be in trouble if it ever had a reason to go independent, and I've known that for ages; it's a one-man project nowadays. At least as an official part of a bigger unit - a Duchy, a subdivision, a House, what have you - said bigger unit might be induced to have a reason to draw it into a wider experience. But in a federation of statelets? Even with agreements on multiple citizenship and things, each statelet would have to look out for its own interests. I don't think I'd be able to keep Benacia afloat in that kind of environment.

I think Harvey's right, here... If cultural development is going to be encouraged to go somewhere, further toward individual projects isn't the right direction.

[Malliki Tosha]

The soccer league is open to anyone, and you seem to equate micronationalism with Shireroth only. Antica doesn't have a fractured cultural structure, and thank the gods for that.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Harvey, the plan wasn't just to divide into statelets and then ignore each other. The plan was to have a federation of statelets united for exactly the purpose you mention. The whole reason for the federation is to unite to do nifty projects that one person couldn't handle alone. If you wanted to do your UMapper thing, it would be a perfect candidate for a federation-level project. Even if you didn't want to do it on the federation level, I would expect the federation to (if it works and gathers momentum) have not just Hyperborea-sized subentities but also Nelaga-sized subentities within it that could also handle such a project (although I would oppose doing it on that level because the federation as a whole could handle it better).

This isn't a shift of opinion so much as a refinement to my previous position to bring it back to reality. I'm never going to get everyone to join a Tymaria-type country because everyone wants to do something different culturally. So the best way to get a single mega-country that can unite everyone is as a federation where people can have countries exactly the way they want them, but still join together when it's useful to do so. In a best case scenario, the statelets give people a level of pride and interest that makes them *more* likely to participate - ie it's not just "do I, Scott, want to do this project?" but "will there be a Hyperborean contribution to this project?"

Subdivisions are the best and worst part of Shireroth. Best, because it gets people into the country so they can enter a subdivision immediately. Worst, because they never want to leave and say hi to the neighbors. Maybe that sort of antisocial mentality fits Shireroth, but I, if I alone, insist it doesn't have to be like that.

I agree with that. What I'm trying to do is turn subdivisions into a socializing force rather than an antisocializing force. My responsibility is not just to develop a Hyperborean culture, but to represent Hyperborea in the federation and determine how it interacts with the rest of Shireroth. One big change away from the current system is a focus on county-level and national-level entities and a decreased focus on Duchy-level entities; I don't think a lot of good comes from suggesting people only interact with their three or four nearest neighbors. So yeah, I do think this uses cultural county-level stuff to increase interaction.

[Harvey Steffke]

I think you're being incredibly naive about the whole thing. "What is the Hyperborean contribution to this project?" swiftly slides into "Screw it, I'm taking over this project since nobody else is doing anything" and finally "I put all the work into this project so I'm going to be able to decide what happens." Frustratingly, people don't work all that well together on much of anything in micronations. My vision is to still let people handle projects individually, but broaden the scope from subdivision to pan-Shireroth, so that everyone can benefit from their hard work and build upon it with their own works later.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Why do you think you disagree with me? We both agree that big projects should be done on the national level.

[Harvey Steffke]

NO YOU'RE WRONG! Big projects should be done at the national level!

edit: no, what we're disagreeing on is that you think "the national level" means more than one person and I think "the national level" means one person doing something for the entire country

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I don't think I think what you think I think. I'd be happy with one person doing something for the entire country. But I also know I'm not going to do, say, a Boomist holy book because Boomism doesn't really interest me. When there are national projects that are cool, I'm happy to help and even build on them, but not all national projects will attract my interest. And so I'm glad to also have a little portion of the country that's mine alone to do what I want with.

And despite what you're saying about how isolating that is, it's really not. I've had many people express interest in Hyperborea, and I know many people read what I write there and incorporate some Hyperborean elements into their own stuff. Likewise, I enjoyed reading about and interacting with Ari's Straylight stuff. There's a balance to be struck between things that lots of people will participate in and things that you actually WANT to do, and I think that lies closer to subdivisions than in our current system.

[Gman Russell]

I believe what Daniel and Elwynn are doing is wrong. They are holding Elwynn hostage, and demanding that we do exactly as they say or they pull the trigger. I'm sorry Daniel, I like you as a person ( ), but your politics I very much disagree with.

[Erik Mortis]

I would agree Greg. I said it from the start when I read that first thread "I expected better from you Ric.." But what is done, is now done. So.. Scott, Harvey, can we get back on topic?

(Though I do kinda have to agree with Harvey that you might be being overly idealistic about people being able to work together like that. )