Standards of the Past
Moderator: Kaiser Fish XII
- Harvey Steffke
- Posts: 1599
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:28 pm
Standards of the Past
Happy Tenth Birthday to Shireroth. It has been an interesting time for many of us. I have seen Shireroth as a direct democracy, as a world-spanning empire, as a subjugated province of no less than four foreign countries, and on one occasion as a time-traveling corporate republic. It has overcome countless obstacles and has set the standard for what a micronation in our sector hopes to look like. It's been a rough road for me, as I've always been a bit on the fringe, with one foot stuck deep within polices and the other outside our borders wanting to leave forever.
The experiences I've had here and the people I've met here will last my lifetime. And I know I am not the only one. These memories mean a lot to many of us, and they are symbolized by the continued existence and activity of this forum. Shireroth being active gives us a fun way to play around with politics and a good excuse to stay in touch with friends, but it's also a place that's becoming increasingly more anchored in our own lives.
So, with that said, how many people can honestly say that this enjoyable decade is best symbolized with this thing:
Yes, I am re-kindling the flag debate. Feel free to scream in horror now, then get back to me when you've got it out of your system.
... you good now? Okay.
I know why you changed the flag. You were afraid of what people thought of it. The old one was made in MSPaint and looks it. I mean, what the heck is that white thing in the middle. A square? A smashed diamond? Some sort of circle? It's a secret everyone. But these were the right questions to ask. We can overcome this. We can subtly tweak the flag, remove the fuzziness of the lines and decide once and for all if that thing is a square or a circle. We can even incorporate new ideas into the flag, such as Scott's quite brilliant use of coding our birth date into the color code of the blue. That was the solution; improvement and refurbishing, not throwing the entire thing out because it was old.
And who were we trying to impress by changing our flag? The other nations of Micras? They could be so lucky to be as stable and active as Shireroth! Historically, we have been quite successful in luring foreigners into Shireroth's borders, yet I have not seen any significant increase in immigration or indeed any foreign-related statistic that shows that our reputation has been enhanced by changing the flag. And newcomers into the hobby? They may think Shireroth's flag is a bit dated, but that's simply because we've never redrawn it more professionally. It has nothing to do with the style.
Are there people out there that avoid Shireroth because of our flag? No. I think not. People either want to join micronationalism or they don't, and there's not a flag design in the world that can make them interested if they aren't or keep them away if they've been bitten by the bug. The real reason we changed the flag has always been internal. We were ashamed of the the fact it was dated. We let fear of the insubstantial jeers of the meek take hold and we made a mistake because of it.
You may confront you own personal fears with a psychiatrist at your own leisure and expense. I merely say that these fears are not much to base a future on, and reassure you all that damage can always be undone.
Shireroth has been around for ten years. It has had its ups and downs; it's periods of brilliance and its tragic mistakes. What matters in the long run is not losing our identity. It is too late to welcome our tenth birthday with a proper flag as a symbol, but at least we can do ourselves justice by reversing the mistake. Erik has said that he would not change the flag during his reign so I will not call for him to go back on his word now. But I think it's something that the country as a whole, as well as hopeful Kaisers-to-be, should be taking very, very seriously. For now, merely give it some thought and feel free to express your opinions.
The experiences I've had here and the people I've met here will last my lifetime. And I know I am not the only one. These memories mean a lot to many of us, and they are symbolized by the continued existence and activity of this forum. Shireroth being active gives us a fun way to play around with politics and a good excuse to stay in touch with friends, but it's also a place that's becoming increasingly more anchored in our own lives.
So, with that said, how many people can honestly say that this enjoyable decade is best symbolized with this thing:
Yes, I am re-kindling the flag debate. Feel free to scream in horror now, then get back to me when you've got it out of your system.
... you good now? Okay.
I know why you changed the flag. You were afraid of what people thought of it. The old one was made in MSPaint and looks it. I mean, what the heck is that white thing in the middle. A square? A smashed diamond? Some sort of circle? It's a secret everyone. But these were the right questions to ask. We can overcome this. We can subtly tweak the flag, remove the fuzziness of the lines and decide once and for all if that thing is a square or a circle. We can even incorporate new ideas into the flag, such as Scott's quite brilliant use of coding our birth date into the color code of the blue. That was the solution; improvement and refurbishing, not throwing the entire thing out because it was old.
And who were we trying to impress by changing our flag? The other nations of Micras? They could be so lucky to be as stable and active as Shireroth! Historically, we have been quite successful in luring foreigners into Shireroth's borders, yet I have not seen any significant increase in immigration or indeed any foreign-related statistic that shows that our reputation has been enhanced by changing the flag. And newcomers into the hobby? They may think Shireroth's flag is a bit dated, but that's simply because we've never redrawn it more professionally. It has nothing to do with the style.
Are there people out there that avoid Shireroth because of our flag? No. I think not. People either want to join micronationalism or they don't, and there's not a flag design in the world that can make them interested if they aren't or keep them away if they've been bitten by the bug. The real reason we changed the flag has always been internal. We were ashamed of the the fact it was dated. We let fear of the insubstantial jeers of the meek take hold and we made a mistake because of it.
You may confront you own personal fears with a psychiatrist at your own leisure and expense. I merely say that these fears are not much to base a future on, and reassure you all that damage can always be undone.
Shireroth has been around for ten years. It has had its ups and downs; it's periods of brilliance and its tragic mistakes. What matters in the long run is not losing our identity. It is too late to welcome our tenth birthday with a proper flag as a symbol, but at least we can do ourselves justice by reversing the mistake. Erik has said that he would not change the flag during his reign so I will not call for him to go back on his word now. But I think it's something that the country as a whole, as well as hopeful Kaisers-to-be, should be taking very, very seriously. For now, merely give it some thought and feel free to express your opinions.
- Kaiser Mors VI
- Posts: 840
- Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:40 pm
Re: Standards of the Past
*nods his head in agreement, but makes no statement at this time for obvious reasons.*
Kaiser Mors VI,
Head of House Mortis.
Head of House Mortis.
- Scott of Hyperborea
- Posts: 2816
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- Location: Ireland
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Re: Standards of the Past
WHAT? YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE FLAG? HOW COULD YOU? THE FLAG IS IDENTICAL TO SHIREROTH! CHANGING THE FLAG IS AS BAD AS DRIVING A RUSTY DAGGER INTO THE HEART OF THE COUNTRY!
...erm, I mean, I still quite like the new flag. It's pretty and inspiring, which is something you could never say about the old. But start a poll, and if other people agree with you we can re-open this issue. Otherwise let sleeping dogs lie.
...erm, I mean, I still quite like the new flag. It's pretty and inspiring, which is something you could never say about the old. But start a poll, and if other people agree with you we can re-open this issue. Otherwise let sleeping dogs lie.
Re: Standards of the Past
Yeah. It's a nice flag, symbolising Shireroth somehow better then anything else: everything changes here over time, step by step. And that's not bad at all (except if I don't like it ).
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Re: Standards of the Past
I'd feel better flying the old flag from my house. The new one looks like it's from some Caribbean island nation and people would start asking me if I was Trinidadian if I were to fly it.
Oh ye who torments me in dreams of dark abysses, beware the sleeping shadow, for it is a bane like no other...
-The Sorcerer of Korgun-Amoth
-The Sorcerer of Korgun-Amoth
- Gman Russell
- Posts: 3947
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- Location: Russell Castle, Mirioth
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Re: Standards of the Past
Including me, that's four people in this thread who want the old flag back. I'd say that's good enough to start a ruckuss.
What follows has lead me to this place where I belong, with all erased.
- Chrimigules
- Posts: 473
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- Location: Ano, Kaikias, Antica
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Re: Standards of the Past
Until the first flag debate, I thought it was a circle. I wasn't aware that there was such deep thought on its geometric nature.
- Malliki Tosha
- Posts: 2516
- Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:43 am
Re: Standards of the Past
Oh for the love of the Gods. The flag was changed by a majority decision, Landsraad approval, Kaiseral decree. The whole shebang. Just learn to accept that you lost and get on with being inactive.
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC
Owner, Newport City FC
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC
Owner, Newport City FC
- Scott of Hyperborea
- Posts: 2816
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- Location: Ireland
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Re: Standards of the Past
Greg: Yeah, and three people supporting the new one - and Ari, who was the biggest supporter, isn't here.
There's no use arguing about this any more. Oldflaggers, either convince the Kaiser to do it unilaterally by decree, or start a Landsraad vote, or start a formal poll that might convince the Kaiser or Landsraad if they know popular opinion's in its favor.
There's no use arguing about this any more. Oldflaggers, either convince the Kaiser to do it unilaterally by decree, or start a Landsraad vote, or start a formal poll that might convince the Kaiser or Landsraad if they know popular opinion's in its favor.
Re: Standards of the Past
So, if one of the Oldflaggers dissapears, we have to vote again to get the new one back? Stop playing these games and use the old flag as Imperial banner!Scott of Hyperborea wrote:Greg: Yeah, and three people supporting the new one - and Ari, who was the biggest supporter, isn't here.
There's no use arguing about this any more. Oldflaggers, either convince the Kaiser to do it unilaterally by decree, or start a Landsraad vote, or start a formal poll that might convince the Kaiser or Landsraad if they know popular opinion's in its favor.
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
- Gman Russell
- Posts: 3947
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Re: Standards of the Past
Wow, Scott, that was pretty obnoxious.
What follows has lead me to this place where I belong, with all erased.
- Malliki Tosha
- Posts: 2516
- Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:43 am
Re: Standards of the Past
I think it's obnoxious when some people drag up the same issue over and over again, acting like little children. Do something about it or stfu is my opinion.
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC
Owner, Newport City FC
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC
Owner, Newport City FC
- Scott of Hyperborea
- Posts: 2816
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Re: Standards of the Past
I'm pretty sure it wasn't. Why should we argue more? We've already discussed the issue ad nauseum. Unless you have some specific plan for changing the flag, all this is doing is getting us angry and upset for literally no reason.Wow, Scott, that was pretty obnoxious.
Re: Standards of the Past
Maybe making arguments and making long rants is how you start a flame to set the olympic torch alight in this hobby.. "Tesco's, every little helps!"
- phineas elastopon
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:42 am
Re: Standards of the Past
What's obnoxious? I'm obnoxious- we're all obnoxious- except for the Swedes.
Mans wants see flag change cause he feels strongly about it. It's not a debating game where people score points based on how well they argue, it's about genuine emotion, about reflecting on the last 10 years blah blah blah see OP. The new flag is terrible anyway. Why did you guys change it?Why should we argue more? We've already discussed the issue ad nauseum. Unless you have some specific plan for changing the flag, all this is doing is getting us angry and upset for literally no reason.
Phineas Elastopon (formerly known as Benkern, Bacchus etc.)
Republic of Antica
Inquisitor
Republic of Antica
Inquisitor
- Scott of Hyperborea
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Re: Standards of the Past
Okay, but he's not going to convince anyone who wasn't convinced the last twenty speeches people gave expressing genuine emotion.
- Kaiser Mors VI
- Posts: 840
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Re: Standards of the Past
*is amuses by Scott convenient use of arguments he said I couldn't use.*
Kaiser Mors VI,
Head of House Mortis.
Head of House Mortis.
- Scott of Hyperborea
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Re: Standards of the Past
What the PRH, Erik? This is really driving me nuts. I say a few things about this issue, and people seem to be either misinterpreting me or just accusing me of random stuff and refusing to tell me why.
When did I ever tell you there were any arguments you couldn't make? And how is the argument I'm making now even applicable to the situation before. All I'm saying now is that instead of going over the SAME controversy again, we should see if anyone's changed their minds or if there's some new governmental process we want to use to decide things, and if not, assume the old decision still stands.
How the heck could I have told you not to use that argument last time, when there was no "the same controversy as before" last time?
...okay, now someone randomly interpret this statement to mean I hate Shireroth or I want to overthrow the Kaiser or whatever random garbage you want.
When did I ever tell you there were any arguments you couldn't make? And how is the argument I'm making now even applicable to the situation before. All I'm saying now is that instead of going over the SAME controversy again, we should see if anyone's changed their minds or if there's some new governmental process we want to use to decide things, and if not, assume the old decision still stands.
How the heck could I have told you not to use that argument last time, when there was no "the same controversy as before" last time?
...okay, now someone randomly interpret this statement to mean I hate Shireroth or I want to overthrow the Kaiser or whatever random garbage you want.
- Malliki Tosha
- Posts: 2516
- Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:43 am
Re: Standards of the Past
Scott, stop hating Shireroth and wanting to overthrow the Kaiser. We're on to you...
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC
Owner, Newport City FC
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC
Owner, Newport City FC
- Gman Russell
- Posts: 3947
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2001 3:31 pm
- Location: Russell Castle, Mirioth
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Re: Standards of the Past
No reason? You changed my flag because you were embarrassed by it. I can understand lots of reasons to want to change a flag, but because your embarrassed by it? THAT's not a reason.
What follows has lead me to this place where I belong, with all erased.
- Scott of Hyperborea
- Posts: 2816
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Re: Standards of the Past
No, we changed it because it was ugly, it didn't symbolize anything, it didn't follow proper flag rules, it was hard to draw, the colors all clashed, and we were embarrassed by it.You changed my flag because you were embarrassed by it.
But that doesn't even matter, because you're misunderstanding me.
I'm not saying there's no reason to change the flag.
I'm saying there's no reason to have another argument about it that will result in everyone keeping their original opinion, everyone getting more upset and angry, and the flag still not getting changed.
Let's put it this way. You guys can't put together enough Landsraad votes or whatever to change the flag back, because the Landsraad just changed the flag forward and it's still mostly the same people with mostly the same opinions. Unless you've come up with some new brilliantly convincing point, different from all the points I already spent a lot of time rebutting when we first had this exact same discussion, having another discussion is going to waste a lot of people's time, get a lot of people angry, and not change that. So what's the point of having this thread?
...actually, that gives me an idea. I'll just not participate in this thread anymore, you guys can just talk yourselves out without doing anything because no one ever does anything by legitimate governmental channels around here, and no one will have to misinterpret everything I say and then get mad at me for it.
Bye!
- Harvey Steffke
- Posts: 1599
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:28 pm
Re: Standards of the Past
*cackles*
Also, I DID say specifically I wasn't going to pursue flag legislation at this time because Erik said quite clearly that he wasn't going to change the flag back in his reign and there's no reason for me to put him in a position where he might have to go back on his word. Not that any of you (or maybe just Scott) bothered to READ the speech apparently. After Erik abdicates legal actions become possible. So don't get snarky with me about not having plans when I said why action *right now* is not possible.
And it's a little sad that you're getting all worked up about meaningless pointless discussion when you were the one that forced the flag issue down everyone's throats the last time until you got your way because you were embarrassed to recruit your friends even though they wouldn't have given a frick about the flag if they were remotely interested in micronations. You don't let sleeping dogs lie. You don't consider the impact of topics like this before making them. You have an agenda of making Shireroth into something it's not by changing the flag, the forum colors, and as many names as you can get your hands on. Did you really think that it was just a matter of getting a few things passed by hook or by crook and then you'd "win" and nobody would care enough to oppose it?
Also, I DID say specifically I wasn't going to pursue flag legislation at this time because Erik said quite clearly that he wasn't going to change the flag back in his reign and there's no reason for me to put him in a position where he might have to go back on his word. Not that any of you (or maybe just Scott) bothered to READ the speech apparently. After Erik abdicates legal actions become possible. So don't get snarky with me about not having plans when I said why action *right now* is not possible.
The point of this thread is that the flag we have has absolutely nothing to do with Shireroth and was voted in using some ugly tactics.Scott of Hyperborea wrote:So what's the point of having this thread?
And it's a little sad that you're getting all worked up about meaningless pointless discussion when you were the one that forced the flag issue down everyone's throats the last time until you got your way because you were embarrassed to recruit your friends even though they wouldn't have given a frick about the flag if they were remotely interested in micronations. You don't let sleeping dogs lie. You don't consider the impact of topics like this before making them. You have an agenda of making Shireroth into something it's not by changing the flag, the forum colors, and as many names as you can get your hands on. Did you really think that it was just a matter of getting a few things passed by hook or by crook and then you'd "win" and nobody would care enough to oppose it?
Re: Standards of the Past
Shyriath walks in, and he sees the direction this thread has gone...
He proceeds to firmly shut his mouth, turn around, and read the next thread.
He proceeds to firmly shut his mouth, turn around, and read the next thread.
- Aurangzeb Khan
- Posts: 3251
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- Location: The Citadel, Ardashirshahr
Re: Standards of the Past
Thank you for your input. Now fuck off.
- Daniel Farewell
- Posts: 1104
- Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:49 am
Re: Standards of the Past
I think CJ's input was quite good. I like that draft.
Re: Standards of the Past
Yeah, indeed... it remembers me of how ugly the flag was.Daniel Farewell wrote:I think CJ's input was quite good. I like that draft.
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Re: Standards of the Past
Those colors are too mature!
- Aurangzeb Khan
- Posts: 3251
- Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:22 pm
- Location: The Citadel, Ardashirshahr
Re: Standards of the Past
The old flag - simply put - was crap. If the old flag is the sum of your traditions then your traditions are crap. Other improvements to the original flag were suggested at the time but the majority rejected those and went with Scott's left-field last minute alternative because it was strikingly different and had a coherent rationale behind it.
Now have a civil war or shut the fuck up.
Now have a civil war or shut the fuck up.
- Malliki Tosha
- Posts: 2516
- Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:43 am
Re: Standards of the Past
I second this motion.Aurangzeb Khan wrote:Thank you for your input. Now fuck off.
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC
Owner, Newport City FC
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC
Owner, Newport City FC
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