#micronations is costing us people...

[Erik Mortis]

Both Allot and Aryez have read the backlogs of that blasted channel, and predictably, they are...displeased with the negative things said.

Everyone says mean things, especially in that chat. But maybe we should stop logging it for that reason. Let things said in their remain there. Confined to the people who have participated.

Honestly, this is the 2nd time that channel has become such a cesspool of negative emotions and behaviors that it's caused hurt feelings and alienation. Something should be done. Whether that's stopping logging, boycotting the channel or maybe.. here's a thought.. being at least slightly nice about people.

I find that last option unlikely. So I advocate the cessation of logging. While not an idealistic answer to people being assholes, at least it wouldn't be waved in people's faces. And I'm sorry Ari, I'm gonna lay some blame on you for this. Till recently I don't think most people knew about the log, then you had to wave it in the air and put it into the Malarbor box when you put the blame/"credit" for your rise to the throne on Harvey.

Or if you must log it. Don't make the logs public. Tuck them away for some future to find. When it won't hurt feelings. Lately we unearthed many old ICQ logs, at this point no one cares what was said then. Maybe we should leave the log for months to years down the line.

#micronations has devolved (if it was ever anything more), into adolescent gossiping and bashing. It has attained a maturity level sub-par for even this hobby. I'm honestly kinda become ashamed of the behavior I see in there. And it is shameful. It's hurting people, and helping no one.

[Harvey Steffke]

People are always going to disagree and they're always going to have things to say about people that they wouldn't say to their faces. Lord knows you say enough bad things about me even when I'm around. If people hear about what they say through logs or through person-to-person contact won't change much in the end.

In the end we'll just have to evolve past it. I've come to terms that, even if they say certain things, nobody really wants me to leave for good. It's something everyone has to realize for themselves in their own way. Blaming people for this or that with logs isn't going to make it any less of a painful process.

[Artz]

aw c'mon... If you don't like being insulted, don't talk to people. Simple as. People are going to say shit about others all the time, its something in our natures, it seems. So what if its logged? I'm sure millions of fights and millions of arguments are caught all of the time on CCTV cameras, but do we complain (much) about that? No.. know why?.. cause we don't bother to scan through all the CCTV cameras to find out who insulted us when we were pissed last night. Isn't this a bit of a farse?.. I mean, if you don't want to read the insults people say.. don't read the damned chat logs and don't stay in the channel.

One thing that shouldn't be done, though, is quoting insults from the logs to back something up.. so fair dues on that. But seriously. Plus, lets look at the people who have complained, here.. Allot and Aryez.. through my many months of being in that channel, I have seen neither more than once. True, I'm not in there all of the time.. but isn't that a bit of a biased selection of time? Thats like watching all the movies in the world, but only watching the parts where people are getting killed and starting a campaign to stop kids from watching movies for the horror that they will see something bad. I mean, no offence to the two guys, naturally.. but think a little. I'm sure people say stuff about you wherever you go IRL.. but if you don't want to know who said what.. you don't go around looking for it. Fair enough if I missed something and if it was quoted to you by someone else.. but.. 0_o.. tell them not to quote.. not us not to log.

*takes a breath*..

[Malliki Tosha]

My advice is to grow some skin. Who cares what people say about you in an Irc chat? I know I come across as a dick sometimes, but I at least have the decency to say the same thing to peoples' faces as I do behind their backs.

[Kaiser Malarbor I]

On the contrary to the suggestion to stop logging, Erik, I think the best solution to this problem is to make it absolutely clear that the channel is public and the things that you say on it a matter of public record. Which is what spangle is already doing, though in a manner he will hopefully shortly make less annoying :P. Basically, if you wouldn't say something in front of your mother, or right to someone's face, you probably shouldn't say it on #micronations either. Maybe once people understand this the channel would be somewhat less of a shameful place. It's not like it's difficult to just chat with someone in private or found/use another channel when they absolutely have to say something uncool. (many people would have to update their opinions about me quite a bit if they heard what I've said about them on #ecco-the-dolphin...)

[Jonas]

Simple as. People are going to say shit about others all the time, its something in our natures, it seems

Untrue. Yes, I sometimes complain about people but I never said things in the way that I have read it in the logs. Some of you have really no shame when it comes to saying something about someone else while expecting that he / she will never discover (but most probably it's without knowing what you said).
Most of my recent 'aggressive behaviour' is coming from the things I read in the logs (damn you, curiosity! ). It's nice to see people plotting with their friends, but it looks like everyone has to say something bad about someone once he left the chatroom. I never thought that you all were so full of hate, and didn't even dare to write down a fraction of it in the forum (so it wouldn't be behind that person's back).

I'm not surprised that others are displeased. And Erik, it's not Ari's fault that you all behave as morons.

[Ryan]

I don't read the logs - mostly because I'm sure there's oodles of shit about me in them.

[Malliki Tosha]

We don't say that much about you Ryan. But I agree with Ari. If you can't stand by what you say there, stfu.

[Nick Foghorn Leghorn]

Maybe Aryez should stop being so Aryez-y.

[Malliki Tosha]

Like that is ever gonna happen.

[Erik Mortis]

Oh well.. This is about the response I expected.

[Allot]

I understand Artz's response, although it could have been phrased less...British. It's not the channel that's costing you people. No matter where people talk shit, the shit will always find its way back to the person and they will be pissed. So (as Jonas so eloquently put it) let's just stop talking shit about people. I'm sorry that my resignation has caused such a stir, I honestly didn't mean it to. I don't really care what people say in the IRC but I do agree that we just need to be a little more positive in general around here. As I said before, NOTHING constructive comes of just relentlessly bashing people. Bashing with evidence is OK (which is why I'm not pissed).

[Icebreaker]

#micronations has devolved (if it was ever anything more), into adolescent gossiping and bashing.

s/#micronations/Micronations/

ALSO, ITT: DELICIOUS TEARS

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Shouldn't mess with it - vaguely incoherent bitching is probably the social glue of our little group.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Hate to say it, but I kind of agree with Erik. It's not just Aryeztur and Allot. I've felt...hated...after reading what people say about me on #micronations sometimes when I'm not there.

It's all nice and well to say people should get thick skins and not care about stuff. I'm capable of doing that, if I have to. But it's not an isolated mental act. To become the sort of person who can just laught it off when people he thought were his friends savage him, I've got to close up in some hard to define psychological way that makes me less able to be nice to other people.

This isn't just a #micronations thing. I see it in a lot of places on the Internet. IRC is famous for it. So is 4chan. It's the whole trolling spirit, where hurting people's feelings is fun and any emotions beyond cynical disdain get laughed at as weak and loser-ish. The Internet's kind of famous for it, but until now Shireroth was mostly able to avoid it, which is why we justly prided ourselves for a long time on how friendly and community-ish we were.

I don't think any of the people in #micronations are actually mean. But I think the IRC medium brings out the worst in people for some reason. I know it brings out parts of me I don't like, although I've been learning to resist more lately.

I could see things going two ways. We could either end up with an ethos of "anyone who can't take the bullying is a pansy and should get out", and end with the sort of community that will produce, or we can seriously question whether the IRC environment is right for us.

[Malliki Tosha]

The solution is quite simple. Either don't read the logs or don't visit the channel. It will still be there, regardless.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

That's the solution to the immediate problem, yeah, and it's one I'm personally committing to (from now on, I'm staying out of #micronations unless there's something specific like a conspiracy going on there).

But I am doubtful that people can become trolls on #micronations and compartmentalize their feelings so well that it will never spill over into on-forum business. If we don't all get along and have genuine liking for each other, the sort of Shireroth I want to live in is over. I don't really see that kind of liking surviving the current climate too long.

[Malliki Tosha]

I like most people here, but I don't understand that notion that we have to like everyone all the time.

[Erik Mortis]

You don't have to like them.. but... some civility/maturity might be nice... we aren't the chaos that is 4chan you know... (I've heard the stories..)

[Malliki Tosha]

I try to keep my disliking of certain persons confined to #micronations now, but I will say the same thing off the channel as on.

[Erik Mortis]

*shrug*

I was more upset when I posted this thread originally, but I do think there are some major conflict issues floating around. And that we could, as a whole, learn to deal with things better. Or at least, know when we are talking in a public locale and for people to not go looking for trouble, either to cause or to become aware of.

[Icebreaker]

But I think the IRC medium brings out the worst in people for some reason. I know it brings out parts of me I don't like, although I've been learning to resist more lately.

HOLY CHRIST, IT'S REAL-TIME TEXT, CHIEF. NOTHING FANCY, NOTHING SPECIAL. BLAMING A NETWORK PROTOCOL FOR PARTS OF YOURSELF YOU DISLIKE IS RIDICULOUS. TAKE A LOOK AT YOURSELF, TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY ETC.

That's the solution to the immediate problem, yeah, and it's one I'm personally committing to (from now on, I'm staying out of #micronations unless there's something specific like a conspiracy going on there).

TEN BUCKS SAYS YOU STILL READ THE BACKLOG.

[Harvey Steffke]

I could see things going two ways. We could either end up with an ethos of "anyone who can't take the bullying is a pansy and should get out", and end with the sort of community that will produce, or we can seriously question whether the IRC environment is right for us.

Well I am going to stay in #micronations, or wherever the constant chat place happens to be. Right now, in light of everything that's happened with me in the past week or two, I care more about staying in that chat than in Shireroth. You can pass laws in Shireroth forbidding citizens to not go to the chat, if you'd like, but I've pretty much already picked my side.

[Chrimigules]

Hate to say it, but I kind of agree with Erik.

YOU CAN JUST FEEL THE HATRED IN THAT STATEMENT

[Allot]

But I think the IRC medium brings out the worst in people for some reason. I know it brings out parts of me I don't like, although I've been learning to resist more lately.

HOLY CHRIST, IT'S REAL-TIME TEXT, CHIEF. NOTHING FANCY, NOTHING SPECIAL. BLAMING A NETWORK PROTOCOL FOR PARTS OF YOURSELF YOU DISLIKE IS RIDICULOUS. TAKE A LOOK AT YOURSELF, TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY ETC.

That's the solution to the immediate problem, yeah, and it's one I'm personally committing to (from now on, I'm staying out of #micronations unless there's something specific like a conspiracy going on there).

TEN BUCKS SAYS YOU STILL READ THE BACKLOG.

What a strange place you've picked to troll, Icebreaker.

[Cho'Gall]

I dont think IRC caused andreas to leave
Us being a penis wrinkle to him did

[Icebreaker]

What a strange place you've picked to troll, Icebreaker.

LALS.

YOU CAN CALL ME A TROLL IF YOU WANT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANYTHING THAT I SAY LESS TRUE.

[Shyriath]

You don't have to like them.. but... some civility/maturity might be nice... we aren't the chaos that is 4chan you know... (I've heard the stories..)

I have heard many legends about 4chan, and it sounds like a terrifying place for the unprepared. Just look at all the memes and other weirdities that have crawled out of it.

Anyway... I understand Scott's statement about IRC bringing out the worst in people; I'm probably more snappish there than I would be otherwise. I'm not given over to a lot of introspection, but it's probably why I don't go in there more than once every few days or so, and why I try not to speak a whole lot when I do.

When you meet someone in person, you get the instinct-prodding feedback (facial expressions and so on) that helps you empathize with them. Online, you don't, but at least on a messageboard with the kind of traffic we have, things happen slowly enough that you have time to consider what you're doing. In a place where communication is more instant, either because of high speed (IRC) or high volume (4chan), you don't always get even that.

(One thing I've noticed about Second Life is that it does relatively well at getting around this problem; faces aren't very mobile, but an avatar still has enough visible emotional range available to make an impression on others.)

[dr-spangle]

On a forum people have time to thik their argument through meaning you make less silly mistakes in arguments and hence there are fewer points to quarrel about, this seems to be the general reasons arguments get massivre on IRC

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Done with the navel gazing yet, chaps?