SPEARheading Our Future

[Rakesh86]

People of Shireroth, I think my friends here have already quite succinctly said what I wanted to say before. I pray that you do not dismiss my posts as blind rhetoric, but instead read and understand my point of view. A few hopefully short points of interest1) I am absolutely insulted that Scott decided to defame me while trying to prove his case for dividing the micronational community into opposing camps. My word, nor my honor is a question for debate - not by you or by anyone here. As the old adage goes - "look for the plank in your own eye, before the splinter in someone else's." 2) If you really understand the process behind the Grand Commonwealth (of which even I do not know everything) you will see that the process was full of holes. Arminy and Antica seems to have been involved in the early stages and it remains a mystery to me about how such secrecy was maintained as the project gained and lost support among the Anglophone nations. 3) Babkha maintained her treaty committments with Shireroth. The Grand Commonwealth was not this sudden radical shift in Babkhan thinking. The same people would be there, the same idealism, the same policies. Instead of one nation, several nations would band together to support a micronational community based on mutual trust and respect, peace, cooperation and nonaggression. These facts would not have changed if you knew about the GC one day before it launched, or were involved from the very beginning. 4) Babkha has always been proud (and perhaps slightly jealous) of her Shirerithian allies. I have often talked about the creativity, dynamicism, versatility and strength of the Imperial Republic. Even as Babkha suffered from it inertia, Shireroth used to always grow despite all and any acts or actions. Is Shireroth so unsure about its own strength, that it must be wary of the Grand Commonwealth and run to help to the Atterans and Anticans.? Those who wish to see the parallelity will notice that at some general point - the GC is trying to work on a successful Shirerithian formula: commonality in foreign and defense policy, but a lot of autonomy is given to the individual duchies (or member states) 5) I have heard several Anticans talk about the similarity between NATO and SPEAR. I think perhaps this metaphor is too correct. Understand the history behind NATO, or perhaps any alliance and you will understand the true intentions of Attera, Antica and Scott. It was Bismarck (the master manipulator of alliances) who once said that in a world of equals and friends, there is no need for alliances. He quickly followed by saying that he was thankful he did not live in a world like that. I ask Attera, Antica and Scott - what enemy have you three come together to fight? Whose national interest will dominate this alliance - Atteran and Antican militanism, or Shirerithian pragmaticism? 6) Scott talks about the balance of power quite a bit. He talks about the restoral of this balance and where SPEAR would ensure that no power rises to hegemonic levels. I must say my friends, that SPEAR itself has massively tilted the balance of power in way not even Babkha and every other nation in the Anglophone Sector could seek to counterbalance . SPEAR brings together the most militant and most populous nations in the Sector, where no force can rise to m meet them save if we want to destroy all we have worked so hard to build up. Do not be shocked if you should wake up tomorrow and see that SPEAR has united Micras under its banner. 7) The GC, to my best understanding, was never meant to be a move to provoke any nation. I know how hard Babkha worked to solve our problems with Attera, the trust we put in Shireroth and how rhetoric was the only answer to the Anticans. Babkha has tirelessly worked for the cause of micronational peace and stability, we would sacrfice all we have gained for the remote hope that we may establish some hegemonic area of control where Pax Babkhana will rule the day. Pax Babkhana is not by our imperialism but by our ideals - liberty, democracy, human rights, cooperation between states and peace. Most important look past the rhetoric . I am not saying that the GC ir Babkha is blameless - but instead understand who we are before you condemn the Anglophone Sector to an extended period where we are essentially divided between opposing camps. Read the GC Charter and then look at the SPEAR treaty. What do you think the intentions of both are? Does Scott's logic make any sense? This is not about choosing sides. Or simply saying what is best for Shireroth. We must think above our own selfish interests and see what is course we want to set for our communtiy we have so painstakingly worked to build. Two paths are before us.

[Thomas G C]

The foremost impression I get from this whole debacle is that, "Le Shireroth, c'est Scott." At least, apparantly, in his own eyes.EDIT: Also, to address a few perhaps minor points brought up here: (1) The governments of GC member states do continue to exist, they are not rolled into a "huge GC legislature". The GC legislature only deals with Commonwealth matters, not internal affairs of member-nations. (2) All the legislatures of GC member-states were consulted, and had to approve the charter before the launch (unlike SPEAR, it seems). They did so in secret, but nonetheless they did do so. Edited by: Thomas G C at: 6/1/05 4:56

[osmose1000]

Scott's examples of GC assholeness are still pretty blatant. Your argument would come off better if you didn't glorify the GC, Rakesh. Hypatia's Mom: Yay! I'm legal now.Moose: WE(Shireroth) HAVE NON-NOBLES?![21:11] Bill7D0: It's 9:11 PM. Do you know where your plane is?

[Rakesh86]

But you know moose we micronationalists are all ego-centric bastards :P

[osmose1000]

Sad yet true. Hypatia's Mom: Yay! I'm legal now.Moose: WE(Shireroth) HAVE NON-NOBLES?![21:11] Bill7D0: It's 9:11 PM. Do you know where your plane is?

[Johanns V]

As quick reply to Rakesh's speak-You say that this brings together the most militant nations in the sector, by which I'm sure you mean Attera and Antica. I'm not about to debate militarism and its merrits or existance right now, but suffice to say your statement is still not entirely correct. Attera and Antica have shared an alliance prior to this in the New Bergl Pact, which is completely separate. Thus SPEAR doesn't change anything in that respect.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Let me try and clarify why I was not overstepping my (admittedly nonexistent) authority in helping negotiate this pact. I'll use the example of the European Union constitution.The EU wants to have a constitution. All the different EU countries have to agree to it. They could have one guy write the whole thing up and then ask the countries if they wanted to approve it or not, but probably all the different little countries would find something objectionable and vote no.So they have one guy from every EU country meet up in Brussels and draft the constitution together. This way, the French guy can put in the French point of view (maybe a constitutional amendment supporting the right to be snooty) and the Belgians can get their point of view (like making waffles the official European food) in. Everyone can object to something they don't think their country will like, and the resulting document is something generally fair to all countries and incorporating all their concerns.But this doesn't mean the constitution is magically passed, any more than it would be if one guy had written the whole thing. The constitution still has to be passed by the government and the electorate of the different European countries. So even though a French guy helped write the constitution and signed his name to the bottom, if the French people don't want it, that is totally their decision.And this is exactly what happened. The constitution, which was negotiatied by a delegation from every nation, was unveiled, the French decided they didn't like it, and voted no on it.This is exactly what happened in SPEAR. All the nations that Delphi (who was in charge of the project) thought might eventually be interested and not be likely to tell Babkha were invited to help draft an agreement they all could agree to. When the agreement was finished being drafted, it would be presented to the various countries (in Shireroth's case, to the Landsraad) for ratification. This is exactly how it should have worked.Unfortunately, the Atterans and Natopians were slightly confused about this whole process and not only announced that the pact was ready before everyone was finished looking it over, but announced MISTAKENLY that Shireroth was already in the pact, rather than what would have been the correct statement which was that a representative of Shireroth was invited to help negotiate the pact and that the pact would soon be decided by Shireroth. Attera has already apologized for this error and we really all ought to just put it behind us.I told the Kaiser that negotiations regarding the pact had begun and that I had been invited to participate. Because of the nature of these things, we then spent a few weeks wrangling over minor issues of wording and what the name should be and boring stuff like that not worth the Kaiser's time. The intent was to inform him as soon as the negotiations were finished and then it could be presented to the Shirerithian people. Unfortunately, as was previously mentioned, information was unfortunately leaked while I was on vacation and could do nothing about it, and then everyone misunderstood the situation and started going crazy.I did not unilaterally sign Shireroth up to anything. I just gave Shireroth's point of view in a series of talks which were to result in a document to be presented to the Landsraad of Shireroth (which, in fact, it was, before the Kaiser vetoed it). Anything to the contrary is misinformation, and editors of the Attera Chronicle World would be happy to admit it if you asked them. I don't bear them any ill feeling over a perfectly reasonable mistake but can we STOP INTENTIONALLY MISUNDERSTANDING IT NOW THANK YOU!Will respond to other stuff in another post.

[Ari Rahikkala]

The question is, do we want to be in an alliance with such incompetent nations ?/me ducks the diplomatic crisis flying his way Jag har glömt hur pjäserna stod!

[Johanns V]

Now, onto the body of this text.Quote:1) I am absolutely insulted that Scott decided to defame me while trying to prove his case for dividing the micronational community into opposing camps. My word, nor my honor is a question for debate - not by you or by anyone here. As the old adage goes - "look for the plank in your own eye, before the splinter in someone else's."The micronational community has already been divided, by the actions of the GC, not by any action of Scott. I think the major polorizing issues were the GC's formation and the situation over Santa Gertrudis. SPEAR is merely a response to these things.Quote:2) If you really understand the process behind the Grand Commonwealth (of which even I do not know everything) you will see that the process was full of holes. Arminy and Antica seems to have been involved in the early stages and it remains a mystery to me about how such secrecy was maintained as the project gained and lost support among the Anglophone nations. Everyone assumed that it had died. I remember checking up on the old forum we were discussing it in in Lemuria and seeing nothing new a month after Arminy joined Shireroth. I hardly think that expecting noone knew about it outside of the nations that continued with Babkha as the new queen ant is too surprising.Quote:3) Babkha maintained her treaty committments with Shireroth. The Grand Commonwealth was not this sudden radical shift in Babkhan thinking. The same people would be there, the same idealism, the same policies. Instead of one nation, several nations would band together to support a micronational community based on mutual trust and respect, peace, cooperation and nonaggression. These facts would not have changed if you knew about the GC one day before it launched, or were involved from the very beginning.This is, frankly, a load of shit. If you were so interested in cooperation and nonagression you would never have proposed the bill annexing Santa Gertrudis. The grand commonwealth was formed by a few dead and dying nations forming a pact with the devil- they continue to exist in some form, in return they become glorified provinces in a Babkhan Empire.Quote:4) Babkha has always been proud (and perhaps slightly jealous) of her Shirerithian allies. I have often talked about the creativity, dynamicism, versatility and strength of the Imperial Republic. Even as Babkha suffered from it inertia, Shireroth used to always grow despite all and any acts or actions. Is Shireroth so unsure about its own strength, that it must be wary of the Grand Commonwealth and run to help to the Atterans and Anticans.? Those who wish to see the parallelity will notice that at some general point - the GC is trying to work on a successful Shirerithian formula: commonality in foreign and defense policy, but a lot of autonomy is given to the individual duchies (or member states)Nice attempt to pull the independence card. I notice it largely rests at the crux of your argument. However, by independence you actually mean that Shireroth ought to remain in 'alliance' with the GC, which, as Scott has said, has been quite keen at reducing Shirerithian influence. Attera and Antica are other nations equally concerned with the GC's actions, not nations masquerading as protectors. SPEAR is intended to be an alliance of equals, with each nation bringing in its own unique talents. Shireroth would be providing for the protection of other nations at the same time as other nations provide for its protection. And it would remain fully independent. That's a far cry from "running" to me.Quote:5) I have heard several Anticans talk about the similarity between NATO and SPEAR. I think perhaps this metaphor is too correct. Understand the history behind NATO, or perhaps any alliance and you will understand the true intentions of Attera, Antica and Scott. It was Bismarck (the master manipulator of alliances) who once said that in a world of equals and friends, there is no need for alliances. He quickly followed by saying that he was thankful he did not live in a world like that. I ask Attera, Antica and Scott - what enemy have you three come together to fight? Whose national interest will dominate this alliance - Atteran and Antican militanism, or Shirerithian pragmaticism? We do not like in a nation of equals and friends, Rakesh. I believe that the actions of the GC are sufficient to show this. Yes, we have come together to counter the influence of the GC. But as NATO has proven, the threat of force is often enough to prevent war. We do not desire war, only to prevent it. That's what SPEAR's about. So long as the opposition remained fragmented, the GC could parade around Micras doing basically anything it wanted. It wouldn't take Attera seriously until we used threats. The existence of SPEAR would make such threats unnecessary, since it is easy to stand up to one nation on nearly equal footing, but who wants to stand up against a whole group of nations?Quote:6) Scott talks about the balance of power quite a bit. He talks about the restoral of this balance and where SPEAR would ensure that no power rises to hegemonic levels. I must say my friends, that SPEAR itself has massively tilted the balance of power in way not even Babkha and every other nation in the Anglophone Sector could seek to counterbalance . SPEAR brings together the most militant and most populous nations in the Sector, where no force can rise to m meet them save if we want to destroy all we have worked so hard to build up. Do not be shocked if you should wake up tomorrow and see that SPEAR has united Micras under its banner. I'm not quite sure what you're implying here. I've covered the 'militant nations' already, however you must remember that in MNs, nations rise and fall like the wind. It is always possible to counter-balance, as the imminent Babkhan absorption of Karnali shows. I wouldn't be too surprised if you convinced Tomann to join up next. Just because you're unimaginative doesn't mean it can't be done.Quote:7) The GC, to my best understanding, was never meant to be a move to provoke any nation. I know how hard Babkha worked to solve our problems with Attera, the trust we put in Shireroth and how rhetoric was the only answer to the Anticans. Babkha has tirelessly worked for the cause of micronational peace and stability, we would sacrfice all we have gained for the remote hope that we may establish some hegemonic area of control where Pax Babkhana will rule the day. Pax Babkhana is not by our imperialism but by our ideals - liberty, democracy, human rights, cooperation between states and peace. You have violated the Argaath Perez Accords and no attempt has been made by your government to remedy the situation. That hardly strikes me as working for micronational peace and stability. And I'm sure somewhere, reading this post, Ardashir Khan either died of laughter or puked. "Liberty, democracy, human rights, cooperation between states and peace." 1) All nations profess to love liberty 2) Babkha and the Grand Commonwealth's are both monarchies 3) See no. 1, 4) Need I bring up Santa Gertrudis, the breech of the Argaath Perez peace accords, and the very nature of the cooperation Mr. Rakesh intends to impose- listening to our ruers in Kamalshahr.Quote:Most important look past the rhetoric . I am not saying that the GC ir Babkha is blameless - but instead understand who we are before you condemn the Anglophone Sector to an extended period where we are essentially divided between opposing camps. Read the GC Charter and then look at the SPEAR treaty. What do you think the intentions of both are? Does Scott's logic make any sense? Dividing camps have already been formed. To deny this is to deny the moon. And while the GC charter was not expressly made for the purpose of Babkhan hegemony, that is the end it has been perverted to. SPEAR only seeks to prevent this from coming to pass, and was inevitable given the way the GC of Babkha came into being, and its actions since that date.Quote:Two paths are before us. That's not true at all. There are three. 1) Join SPEAR and help combat Babkhan imperialism. 2) Remain neutral in the conflict. I could include how this will lead to an apocolypse where Babkha will deal with Shireroth after conquering the rest of the Microworld, but we know from experiance that'll never happen. 3) Become a Babkhan lap-dog and serve your masters in Kamalshahr. I know which one Rakesh would prefer. Waz ist wunders hie geschehenDaz ein Magt ein Kint gebarHêre übr Engel ScharWas daz niht ein Wunder gar?-Walther von der VogelweideEdited by: Johanns V  at: 6/1/05 13:54

[Thomas G C]

I wonder, if the Kaiser had said "Yeah, I quite like the look of that treaty, good work Scott", and people like Harvey hadn't been so vociferous in their annoyance, whether the line would still have been "Oh, Attera announced to early by mistake, we really were going to consult the Landsraad."

[Delphi]

The original idea by myself was to create specifically an alliance of nations, treated each as equals, despite activity or other factors, and for this alliance only to be guiding, and that all important things still go back to the individual nations and their legislatures to deal with. So yes.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Quote:1) I am absolutely insulted that Scott decided to defame me while trying to prove his case for dividing the micronational community into opposing camps. My word, nor my honor is a question for debate - not by you or by anyone here. As the old adage goes - "look for the plank in your own eye, before the splinter in someone else's." This is not so much a defamation of you as a humorous allusion to Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. I should have realized people wouldn't get it and it would look insulting, but I couldn't resist.Quote:2) If you really understand the process behind the Grand Commonwealth (of which even I do not know everything) you will see that the process was full of holes. Arminy and Antica seems to have been involved in the early stages and it remains a mystery to me about how such secrecy was maintained as the project gained and lost support among the Anglophone nations. Secrecy was not maintained. Thanks to the efforts of SHINE, we learned about the Grand Commonwealth in a few different ways, including the original version before Babkha was involved. We are not so much angry that we didn't know as that we had to use espionage to find out what should have been told us directly. Quote:3) Babkha maintained her treaty committments with Shireroth. The Grand Commonwealth was not this sudden radical shift in Babkhan thinking. The same people would be there, the same idealism, the same policies. Instead of one nation, several nations would band together to support a micronational community based on mutual trust and respect, peace, cooperation and nonaggression. These facts would not have changed if you knew about the GC one day before it launched, or were involved from the very beginning.I am willing to agree that Babkha maintained her treaty commitments with Shireroth, albeit only in the same limited sense that one is "maintaining" a religion by not specifically going out and spitting on its holy books. I only want to emphasize that if Babkha is maintaining her obligations by entering into an alliance without our consent in a way that we are bound to find slightly menacing, then we are maintaining our obligations if we choose to do the same thing.Quote:4) Babkha has always been proud (and perhaps slightly jealous) of her Shirerithian allies. I have often talked about the creativity, dynamicism, versatility and strength of the Imperial Republic. Even as Babkha suffered from it inertia, Shireroth used to always grow despite all and any acts or actions. Is Shireroth so unsure about its own strength, that it must be wary of the Grand Commonwealth and run to help to the Atterans and Anticans.? Those who wish to see the parallelity will notice that at some general point - the GC is trying to work on a successful Shirerithian formula: commonality in foreign and defense policy, but a lot of autonomy is given to the individual duchies (or member states)Shireroth is not afraid, but it is also not arrogant. When Babkha starts gathering up a gang of friends and using language making it clear they have every intention to pick on Shireroth, it would be heroic yet a bit stupid for us not to try and get some of our own friends to make sure this doesn't happen. I would love to be able to put Babkha in the "friend" column, but its recent actions just don't seem to bear that out. The best thing to do would be to diversify into a couple of other friends so that we have potential help if the Babkhans prove untrustworthy.Quote:5) I have heard several Anticans talk about the similarity between NATO and SPEAR. I think perhaps this metaphor is too correct. Understand the history behind NATO, or perhaps any alliance and you will understand the true intentions of Attera, Antica and Scott. It was Bismarck (the master manipulator of alliances) who once said that in a world of equals and friends, there is no need for alliances. He quickly followed by saying that he was thankful he did not live in a world like that. I ask Attera, Antica and Scott - what enemy have you three come together to fight? Whose national interest will dominate this alliance - Atteran and Antican militanism, or Shirerithian pragmaticism? Let's continue this SPEAR/NATO comparison. America and Europe (the heart of NATO) were allies with Russia in WWII. Then all of a sudden Russia goes and makes a "pact" with all sorts of other nations. A pact of equals, say the Russians! But the Warsaw Pact just ends up looking like a really big Russia with a token Czech here and there, and all of a sudden it starts seeming really unfriendly to the US despite their old alliance. Under the circumstances, forming NATO was a darned good idea, and probably one of the reasons why the world remains "free" and "democratic" today. See any parallels?Quote:6) Scott talks about the balance of power quite a bit. He talks about the restoral of this balance and where SPEAR would ensure that no power rises to hegemonic levels. I must say my friends, that SPEAR itself has massively tilted the balance of power in way not even Babkha and every other nation in the Anglophone Sector could seek to counterbalance . SPEAR brings together the most militant and most populous nations in the Sector, where no force can rise to m meet them save if we want to destroy all we have worked so hard to build up. Do not be shocked if you should wake up tomorrow and see that SPEAR has united Micras under its banner.The problem, my dear Rakesh, with starting a game of one-ups-man-ship is that you don't know when it is going to end. Your (Babkha's, not yours personally) idea was to create an superstate bigger than any currently existing micronation so that you can do whatever you want. And now you have the gall to protest about "upsetting the balance of power" when someone else proposes something even bigger than your superstate in order to deal with you? That takes a pretty twisted worldview.Quote:7) The GC, to my best understanding, was never meant to be a move to provoke any nation. I know how hard Babkha worked to solve our problems with Attera, the trust we put in Shireroth and how rhetoric was the only answer to the Anticans. Babkha has tirelessly worked for the cause of micronational peace and stability, we would sacrfice all we have gained for the remote hope that we may establish some hegemonic area of control where Pax Babkhana will rule the day. Pax Babkhana is not by our imperialism but by our ideals - liberty, democracy, human rights, cooperation between states and peace. Babkha, in its work for "micronational stability" has somehow managed to piss off almost every nation in the micronational world. Attera, okay, it's pretty easy to piss them off, I would know. Antica, a little harder, I've always found them easy to get along with. Natopia, it's pretty darned hard to piss them off, but you seem to have managed to do it. San Martin. Germania. Treisenberg-Slavonia. And now Shireroth. In fact, with a few exceptions *waves to Talamthom* the countries who don't seem to hate you are, by an interesting coincidence, the ones you rule with an iron fist. Funny what sort of crazy things can happen when you're working for liberty, democracy, human rights, cooperation between states, and peace.Quote:Most important look past the rhetoric . I am not saying that the GC ir Babkha is blameless - but instead understand who we are before you condemn the Anglophone Sector to an extended period where we are essentially divided between opposing camps. Read the GC Charter and then look at the SPEAR treaty. What do you think the intentions of both are? Does Scott's logic make any sense?Oh no! An Anglophone sector with divided camps! Totally unlike right now, when everyone gets along perfectly! Rakesh, everything you said would have been absolutely brilliant advice to offer the Shahan-Ri and the Shah when they were going about making the Grand Commonwealth. Now that the GC exists and the rest of the micronational world has to figure out what to do with it, your advice is completely obsolete. Sorry. Go back about a month ago and say exactly what you're saying now, and I'll totally support you. Edited by: Scott of Hyperborea  at: 6/1/05 15:17

[Stjepan Veliki]

Pedantic Note: NATO was formed before the Warsaw Pact.Carry on.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Thomas, there is no way the treaty COULD have come into effect except through the Landsraad (except by direct Kaiserial decree, which rarely happens). I cannot just sign us onto alliances whenever I feel like it! Do you think Iain and the foreign ministry would just randomly agree to a treaty because there was a Shirerithian's name signed on it?

[Thomas G C]

It certainly looks like Iain and the foreign ministry hasn't had much say in things, and won't in the future, considering how he wasn't even notified of the existence of these treaty negotiations.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I take offense to that statement. I have made absolutely certain to inform Iain of every negotiation I take part in to the exact same extent that he has done the same for me in the past.

[Johanns V]

For reference: It was the official statement in Attera that said that Shireroth was already a member. The statement in the ACW, which can still be said, mentioned that certain nations would need to ratify the treaty. I considered putting, "such as Shireroth" as a preface to that statement, and now regret not doing so.Of course that would be the line, the Landsraad has to discuss the treaty for it to take effect. Try a new line of propoganda. Waz ist wunders hie geschehenDaz ein Magt ein Kint gebarHêre übr Engel ScharWas daz niht ein Wunder gar?-Walther von der Vogelweide

[Thomas G C]

I'm just worried about the fact that Attera apparantly has these disasterous weapons, and it's now clear that they're in the hands of incompetents who release strategically important claims without care or consideration.

[Hypatia Agnesi]

*pickets*The rhetoric and political battles are ruining our clean water and infecting our signatures!!!!!DOWN WITH THE RHETORIC!!!!!!...(In case you're curious, I'm undecided on this issue of the GC vs. SPEAR, but I think it's massively overblown, and everyone is taking everything far, far too seriously. This is micronations, people!)...*continues picketing*JOIN ME IN THE PROTEST AGAINST UNNECESSARY RHETORIC!!!!!111321 *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!

[Delphi]

Jesus Christ I'm a little offended. Antica's the only one here who has launched any kind of weapon as long as I can remember. Get over it, Attera's not as evil as you think they are! (sorry guys ) The point of this Alliance is also to put checks on things... the forums are open now (you can go check in Antica), and one of the first things agreed upon is that no attacks would be made without agreement from all. Such comments were directed at me, and I agreed in full. So this is a factor to keep certain nations in check, as well.

[Thomas G C]

Well that, at least, is nice to know. I hope you can keep checks on Attera's over-enthusiastic diplomatic announcements department in future, too.

[Greg Johnston]

Note also that the military clause is only about aggression. If somebody did make an attack without consent, SPEAR would not condone it. greg johnston

[Bill3000]

Quote:everyone is taking everything far, far too seriously. This is micronations, people!And that's precisely why everyone is taking things far too seriously: Because it's micronations. Micronations is our life and it is natural for someone to care so passionately about such a hobby.What if I said "Who gives a crap about politics? People take it far, far, too seriously." It's the same difference.Oh, and Thomas? Sorry. Iain absolutely lost all our trust, proven to be basically a Babkhan traitor, so of course we're not going to trust him with a treaty like this. This is an example of when dual citizenship goes wrong, when one person clearly favors one nation over another. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismQuillan Fatebane, 65th Paladin, Lanys Tvy'l Server (EQ1)Quillan Umbarcotumo, 37th Paladin, Innothule Server (EQ2)Proud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'As for... Quil, to be honest many of us have wondered about [him] for some time now. The real question might be why he LEFT the lance there.' - Areania, on how Quillan (Bill in EQ1) let Trombonius 'sit' on his lance"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[Thomas G C]

Except that Iain is the official foreign minister of Shireroth. It seems odd that he wasn't informed of important foreign affairs matters. Your remit as Trade Minister, on the other hand, doesn't really qualify you - if I have the seniority system right - to go over the MiniEx's head. [EDIT: And moreover, Iain's treaty negotiations were being conducted by him on behalf of Treesia, not Shireroth, and you are not the foreign minister of Treesia.] Edited by: Thomas G C at: 6/1/05 16:20

[osmose1000]

Quote:It seems odd that he wasn't informed of important foreign affairs matters.It seems odd that he didn't inform us of important foreign affairs matters either. Hypatia's Mom: Yay! I'm legal now.Moose: WE(Shireroth) HAVE NON-NOBLES?![21:11] Bill7D0: It's 9:11 PM. Do you know where your plane is?

[Bill3000]

Oh, and regarding rhetoric: Just like in real life, facts don't matter in micronational politics, and saying "down with rhetoric" isn't going to solve anything when it is human nature to think what you believe is true to be a fact. If someone is stubborn enough to make a belief thought as a truth, it is done so, both in micronations and macronations, and no side is innocent of this. Gogo political relativism! Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismQuillan Fatebane, 65th Paladin, Lanys Tvy'l Server (EQ1)Quillan Umbarcotumo, 37th Paladin, Innothule Server (EQ2)Proud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'As for... Quil, to be honest many of us have wondered about [him] for some time now. The real question might be why he LEFT the lance there.' - Areania, on how Quillan (Bill in EQ1) let Trombonius 'sit' on his lance"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[Thomas G C]

Moose - but the foreign affairs in which Iain was involved didn't involve Shireroth. What Scott was doing explicitly involved Shireroth, since he was acting as a representative on its behalf, with authorisation from, apparantly, absolutely nobody. He may have informed the Kaiser of his actions, but did anyone actually give him permission to represent Shireroth in these negotiations? The MiniEx certainly didn't, and he's the one who should be in charge of these matters. Bill may not trust Iain, but the Kaiser obviously does, because he holds the office.

[Bill3000]

Quote:Bill may not trust Iain, but the Kaiser obviously does, because he holds the office.Or, it's because he couldn't get around to it because he's been so busy lately. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismQuillan Fatebane, 65th Paladin, Lanys Tvy'l Server (EQ1)Quillan Umbarcotumo, 37th Paladin, Innothule Server (EQ2)Proud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'As for... Quil, to be honest many of us have wondered about [him] for some time now. The real question might be why he LEFT the lance there.' - Areania, on how Quillan (Bill in EQ1) let Trombonius 'sit' on his lance"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[Harvey the Blue]

Quote:Bill may not trust Iain, but the Kaiser obviously does, because he holds the office.Lack of available alternatives. We're working on it. Harvey SteffkeSai'Kar's Memories LiveJournal - ranting about Shirerothian issues since fall 2004.

[Rakesh86]

In honor of Renee's request, no more speeches from me. Sadly I lack the time to respond to Scott, Johanns, and everyone else. Well my friends I think you have heard both sides of the argument. If Scott, who seems to have much authority to speak for the interests of Shireroth, is committed to this military alliance so be it. It is the decision of the Kaiser, the Landsraad and Scott (because he seems to fall into his own special category these days).Let me again come back to good ol' Julius Ceaser when I say - let the die be cast. You shall rightfully reap what you sow. Les jeux sont faits (I did get the reference to Julius Ceaser (I happend to see the play just last week) but I found your use as patronizing and contumelious as Shakespeare first imagined)