Non-verbal Language....?

[Kaiser Raynor X]

I was reading my sociology book.. and it discribed language.. as the "symbols" used to communicate in a culture or something... anyhoo.. the point was... it didn't say anything about sound... Language is verbal... before it's written... now it proly didn't mean it like that.. but I was thinking.. could you teach a child to read before teaching them to speak? I mean.. in micronations.. it's all written language... we make up words and named we can't really pronounce some times it seems..hehe.. but.. could a child learn language without sound...? mind you.. they are not deaf, blind..ect... but they would never hear anyone speak...Interesting aye? Raynor M'JiliadKaiser of Shireroth

[Jadie Mathematician]

That is very interesting Kaiser.....well think about it. You can communicate anything without sound. Like Sign Language. Sometimes a facial expression is enough to say what you mean. But very cool. *smiles* Jadie MathematicianLaicondiel HostanolëDuamirathius of DelvenusDuchess of Goldshire of ShirerothHero of the Battle of CimmeriaGovernor of GeovenusCitizen of Menelmacar

[Kaiser Raynor X]

But how would you teach a child such a thing? Raynor M'JiliadKaiser of Shireroth

[Harvey the Blue]

I unfortunately have not been able to verify this, but a friend of mine insists that they experiment has actually been done. And the result was always the same: the child died.Apparently human interaction on a verbal level is important for their development. Harvey SteffkePreviously known as Sai'Kar Lum'EthProud bearer of the Shirerothian Silver Sword Award and Imperial Star

[Jadie Mathematician]

Unless they were born deaf....they don't die now do they? Jadie MathematicianLaicondiel HostanolëDuamirathius of DelvenusDuchess of Goldshire of ShirerothHero of the Battle of CimmeriaGovernor of GeovenusCitizen of Menelmacar

[Mattlore Devious]

Quote:the child died.I burst out laughing after reading that...that dosn't happen very often, which reminds me....this weeks onion.... The Ven. Mattlore DeviousPrime MinisterBaron of Holbrook The Most Serene Empire of AscalonLord ExecutiveNew Macadam

[Jadie Mathematician]

aww.....*cries* Jadie MathematicianLaicondiel HostanolëDuamirathius of DelvenusDuchess of Goldshire of ShirerothHero of the Battle of CimmeriaGovernor of GeovenusCitizen of Menelmacar

[Harvey the Blue]

That was not supposed to be a joke...I do not know about deaf children though. Most of them had hearing at one point of their life, even if it was for a very short time. Harvey SteffkePreviously known as Sai'Kar Lum'EthProud bearer of the Shirerothian Silver Sword Award and Imperial Star

[Jadie Mathematician]

It definitely wasn't a joke in my eyes why do you think I was crying. If I thought it was a joke then I would have laughed after that statement. This entire topic is really sad.....I don't even know what to say about it except to cry. Like for example if 2 deaf parents had a child that had perfect hearing. The parents can't communicate with their child verbally. I don't think that the research that the child will always die if it doesn't have verbal communication. So that is what I think but maybe I am wrong. Jadie MathematicianLaicondiel HostanolëDuamirathius of DelvenusDuchess of Goldshire of ShirerothHero of the Battle of CimmeriaGovernor of GeovenusCitizen of Menelmacar

[Kaiser Raynor X]

THe child would have interaction.. and verbal... but it just wouldn't havea any lingual interaction.... Raynor M'JiliadKaiser of Shireroth

[Mattlore Devious]

I know it wasn't meant as a joke, It just tickled my wierd sense of humor.

[Shyriath]

*Ahem*Not a citizen here, just yer random micronational enthusiast cruising through. If I'm doing something wrong in posting here, by any chance, just go ahead and delete this... but, language being an interest of mine, I felt the need to respond here.Acquiring language is, indeed, a vital thing for human beings to do at a young age. There are very few instances where a human child fails to be exposed to language, but the ones who HAVE been through that do not die (at least, not automatically). However, it does screw up stuff somethin' fierce. There is a critical period during which a child's brain builds up the unconscious linguistic knowledge needed to communicate fluently in a language, and if for some reason that doesn't happen, then as older individuals they will NEVER acquire language. They may slowly, painfully, learn a few words, but will never be able to string them together in any complex fashion.What happens to the deaf depends on how they are raised. Obviously, they can't acquire spoken language, because they can't hear it; but, if they are exposed to a fully developed sign language, they will learn it in exactly the same manner that a normal child learns spoken language. Sign languages behave in ways that are analogous to spoken ones (just for example, they have 'dialects'... just as people pronounce words word different sounds from place to place, sign languages develop different gestures).But this doesn't apply to writing. From what is currently understood, the brain cannot acquire knowledge of writing in the same way that it can for patterns of sounds and gestures; it is something that must be learned consciously. (Not sure exactly why, though I could look it up in my textbook if you're really interested...)*Stops gabbing now* --Shyriath & PalsShyriath: Thin, pale, green, pathetic, and nervous. And one of the last adult members of his civilization.Ilirith: Small, cute, green, pathetic, and cute. And Shyriath's adopted daughter. And psionically overcharged. And cute.

[Mattlore Devious]

This is mucho interesting

[Kaiser Raynor X]

You are completely welcome in Shireroth. Please return as often as you like.. Heck.. Join if you want...But, could.. in theory.. you teach a child sign language.. than!... teach them to.. draw/write those gesters? like.. Show them a gester.. and than show them a written form or it? Raynor M'JiliadKaiser of Shireroth

[Shyriath]

Sorry for the delay... rushing about all over the place these days...Firstly, thanks for the welcome, I appreciate it. I may join, but then again, I may form my own micronation if I can. All depends on how things go.Now, to the speech!There's no reason why sign language couldn't be written. I would imagine that users of, say, American Sign Language could write what they gesture without difficulty, since the gesturing is a way to encode English; I'd guess they write like everybody else in America does.But even if you had a gestural language that WASN'T based on a spoken language, there's no reason why it couldn't be written. The only difference is that, instead of symbols representing sounds, the symbols would represent gestures, and children would learn the symbols in the exact same way that most children learn to write... that is, while they could just pick up gestures from their parents, they would have to be formally taught how to write something that would represent the gestures.That having been said, I don't think there IS any such thing as an entirely gestural language that isn't based on a spoken one. I guess we're just all too fond of making noise... --Shyriath & PalsShyriath: Thin, pale, green, pathetic, and nervous. And one of the last adult members of his civilization.Ilirith: Small, cute, green, pathetic, and cute. And Shyriath's adopted daughter. And psionically overcharged. And cute.

[Kaiser Raynor X]

But in theory... it could be done... Japanese is a bit like that isn't it... symbols representing things not sounds? Raynor M'JiliadKaiser of Shireroth

[Shyriath]

What you're referring to are the Japanese kanji (I think that's what they're called); they're borrowed symbols from Chinese, and they work in a similar manner. You do have a point, actually... they don't represent sounds as such. I mean, they're pronounced a certain way in each language, but they represent a word rather than how the word is pronounced.*Is ashamed of himself for not thinking of that.*The Chinese are able to use their writing to great effect like that. Pronounciation varies greatly from one part of China to another, so that people from widely separated area may not be able to understand each others' speech... but they can understand each others' writing (at least partially), because even though the actual spoken words they have for something are different, the symbols are the same. --Shyriath & PalsShyriath: Thin, pale, green, pathetic, and nervous. And one of the last adult members of his civilization.Ilirith: Small, cute, green, pathetic, and cute. And Shyriath's adopted daughter. And psionically overcharged. And cute.

[Kaiser Raynor X]

So one could use chinese to teach a child to write and not speak perhaps? Raynor M'JiliadKaiser of Shireroth

[Zarathustra Erutirn]

What is the point though?I mean, other than the random: Let's do it, just once, to prove we can sort of reasoning...Is there a greater meaning behind it?More importantly, abstracts.Language loses something the more concrete it becomes, the spoken word alone fails to even begin to explain love... and inflection, gestures, facial expresions are all included in the spoken word... how then would you even try to explain such grand abstracts to someone who knows no verbal word. Text alone could never hope to contain the meaning of love, when the very words themselves fail to carry the meaning. "Disce quasi semper victurus; vive quasi cras moriturus"

[Kaiser Raynor X]

I forgot ... oh yes!... This started with my hypothetical question... this isn't so much... Let's do it because we can.. it more.... Can we even do it the first place. It's just theory. Does there have to be a point... It's science! Let's just injoy the ability to use our minds and not have answers handed to us.. k?Yeah.. abstracts would give some trouble.... If we could teach the emotion.. to tell what emotion is.. Love could be done... Given: The child knows what emotions are and most of the language I'm about use... And has a good.. I guess.. relationship with it's mother.. or father.. whoever it sees as it's caretaker and would go to for reaturance...Me to child: Love is an emotion. There are different kinds of love. One kind is the emotion you feel toward [insert caregiver's name here, proly mother]...I don't know.. something along those lines.. I would proly spend several hours getting the exact wording.. Bascily.. you'de have to build the child up to the point of abstract.. and would have to wait till they had even developed to that point... It would be a slow process. But having something like Sign language to go with it would help alot... Raynor M'JiliadKaiser of Shireroth

[Shyriath]

Let's hear it for experimentation!...But I still don't think a child could make do with just writing. Chinese characters represent ideas, true, but those ideas already exist as words, even if the words are different in different dialects.Considering this, it occurs to me that there may not even BE a way to teach a child just how to write. Showing him/her what each symbol meant would necessarily involve explanation, even if only by gestures... for example, suppose you showed a child a symbol meaning 'tree'. But unless it bore an excellent resemblance to a tree (Chinese ideograms, in many cases, no longer resemble the things they originally represented), the symbol would be meaningless to the child (and hard for the child to reduplicate). The connection between the symbol and the object would have to be explained, and in order to explain it adequately, one would have to use, at the very least, gestures. But if you did that, then the child would start learning the gestures, as opposed to the symbol. --Shyriath & PalsShyriath: Thin, pale, green, pathetic, and nervous. And one of the last adult members of his civilization.Ilirith: Small, cute, green, pathetic, and cute. And Shyriath's adopted daughter. And psionically overcharged. And cute.

[Kalir Sethan]

What I would do is show a child a picture of a tree (or, better yet, an actual tree) and at the same time show him or her the ideogram for "tree". When the child has that a few ideograms down , start broadening the concepts - if you taught him or her "tree" with an oak tree, start showing a willow tree and a Joshua Tree with the same tree ideogram, and start showing the "dog" ideogram with poodles, Labradors, Chihuahuas, Great Danes, et cetera, until the child knows that it refers to a concept rather than to any specific picture.Once the child has a decent vocabulary, it would be necessary to teach grammar. You show the child a picture of the dog with the dog ideogram, and then you show them two dogs and you do whatever you've decided is going to mean plural...maybe a stroke above the ideogram or something. Verbs can work on the same concept - you show a dog walking and you give the ideogram for dog and the ideogram for walk, and then you show a person walking with the ideogram for person and the ideogram for walk, until the child understands that the walking ideogram refers to the motion rather than the subject of the motion. If you want to be clever, you can have a screen that shows an ideogram every time the child does something - when the child is eating, the eat ideogram shows up, when he or she is learning, the learn ideogram shows up, and so on. I'm sure you can see how adjectives could be learned in a similar fashion.Tenses could also be done by this method. Person walking, person stops walking, ideogram plus "past" marker. Person not walking, ideogram with "future" marker, person starts walking. Person walking, ideogram with present marker at the same time. Establish the prepositions and stuff, and you've basically got an entire complex language.One thing I am curious about is whether it would be necessary to use ideograms, or whether a child would be able to understand words as pictures. That is, if I do not understand the concept of a letter, can I still view the word "tot" as "two cross things with a circle in between" and remember that well enough that I will in the future be able to distinguish it from all other words? I'm guessing yes - the human brain is surprisingly good at these things, and I think if our child is smart enough, her or she will notice the letters on his or her own and the problem will be over.And, ironically, here comes my signature in a language that has never been spoken aloud but which exists rather well in written form... lamabal kazelithital ikoseka kacheki ikétona.

[Kaiser Raynor X]

That just might work! Raynor M'JiliadKaiser of Shireroth

[Ari Rahikkala]

You know, I used to speak rather dialect-neutral Finnish even though the region I grew up in has a clearly noticeable dialect. My parents have claimed that the reason for this is that I learned to read almost as soon as I had learned to speak, so I spoke a sort of literary language (that's an incorrect term, really - literary language can only be written) instead of the local dialect. Now I don't know how feasible this is, but I did believe it when I was younger :). Edited by: Ari Rahikkala at: 3/17/03 4:41:54 am

[Kaiser Raynor X]

*ponder ponder*.... Somehow.. that makes sense... to me at least... Raynor M'JiliadKaiser of Shireroth

[Ruhan Zarathustra Erudinz]

Sometimes people just have odd accents. I speak with a New England accent, or at least I did... either people got used to the novelty or these dirty Idahoans assimilated me. I never really noticed my accent (who does?) but yea, for the longest time people would ask me if I was from New England (save for one of my English teachers who asked me if I was from England...) but, yea, apparently I speak with a New England accent... I've never actually /been/ in New England (wait, is DC in New England? I don't think so...)... Michigan and Washington, D.C. are the closest I've ever been to that region. "Disce quasi semper victurus; vive quasi cras moriturus"

[Shyriath]

How I speak depends on who I talk to. I live in Maryland (which is a Mid-Atlantic state, rather than New England... or so I've been told, so DC probably wouldn't be New England either). When I'm talking to the people I'm most comfortable around... family, friends, the dog, etc... I'm nearly dialect-neutral (I think), but not quite, and I tend to have a mildly Baltimorean accent in some words, since my parents came from the general direction of the city. (Baltimore does, in fact, have its own urban dialect... just like New York does. My grandmother's second husband talks that way all the time. Just as one example: he pronounces "Baltimore" as something like "Balmer" or "Balamer". Mine is closer to "Baltimer".)At work, I talk differently. The people I work most closely with are of a more rural background have a bit more of a Southern flavor to they way they speak, and I tend to pick up a tiny bit of that when I'm talking to them.Occasionally, I'll speak in other languages (most of them I make up myself, but also Italian), when I can remember the right words for the occasion. Ma non e' facile; tutte le parole sono difficile per me, so I don't use them very often...Edit: I actually managed to find some things on Maryland speech, if anyone wants to have a look. I didn't know people actually wrote about it.http://www.mdlib.org/ecrab/1999/jul99/talk.htmAn example of Baltimore speech.http://www.rootsweb.com/~wvmorgan/easts ... xpressions from the Eastern Shore, although I myself don't live there. I do, occasionally, say "whole nother", though.http://www.robinsweb.com/maryland/merlin.htmlActually, this one reminds me of the way they talk at work. Maybe it's NOT such a southern accent... or, on the other hand, perhaps we're southerners in denial.home.earthlink.net/%7Euke...orese.htmlI use a few of these, too.There was one called http://www.baltimorehon.com , which apparently was supposed to be very good but I can't reach it; it may not exist anymore.Aren't dialects wonderful? --Shyriath & PalsShyriath: Thin, pale, green, pathetic, and nervous. And one of the last adult members of his civilization.Ilirith: Small, cute, green, pathetic, and cute. And Shyriath's adopted daughter. And psionically overcharged. And cute.Edited by: Shyriath  at: 3/19/03 10:21:58 am

[Kaiser Raynor X]

I've been known to slip into a English accent on occasion.. or a Southern Drawl.... But mostly I have the flat Californian Accent.. Raynor M'JiliadKaiser of Shireroth

[Ari Rahikkala]

I need to ask someone how I talk nowadays... Dori me / interimo adapare dori me / ameno ameno latire / latiremo / dori meAmeno / omenare imperavi ameno / dimere dimere matiro / matiremo / ameno....

[Kaiser Raynor X]

I know I have a lisp.... I think... Raynor M'JiliadKaiser of Shireroth