Support Needed ASAP

[Kaiseress Semisa I]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wik..._Shirerothsave it!

[AngelGuardian93]

Greg is confused. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Kaiseress Semisa I]

Do you want an article for Shireroth on Wikipedia or not?

[david northworthy beckfor]

yes, but how do we save it?

[Kaiseress Semisa I]

Vote in it's favor! Like so! Keep. {reason for keeping}

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Are you sure that we should have our own wiki article? This sounds like exactly the kind of thing wikipedia is supposed to protect against - people making articles for their personal lives, their websites, et cetera.

[Kaiseress Semisa I]

Granted, but I have a lot of people asking me these days, "So what's Shireroth?" People at work, listeners on my radio show...

[Hypatia Agnesi]

Hell, if my high school can have a wikipedia page, I think it's silly for the to feel it's necessary to delete the article on Shireroth. *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!

[Bill3000]

I can't believe you actually did this. You know that you have no chance in actually keeping this, right? Don't you know the arguments they had over the micronations article? *sigh* You dumbarses. Seriously Fax, you shoudl have talked to me first before you had even considered doing this.Wikipedians do not even find the Micras Sector notable, much less Shireroth. Trying to get members who had never contributed to wikipedia to save an article is not going to do any good, and if anything, will just make the entire vote even more towards deletion. You do not have a say if your first contribution is one in which is threatened to be deleted - you need to actually be a contributer to Wikipedia.They think that the only notable micronation is something that has real articles in real newspapers written about it. This is an embarressment to even have such an article in here. Seriously, give it up - there is no chance that we will be able to keep it. We are just too small, and according to wikipedia standards, the entire simulationist micronationalist community is non-notable. Don't bother. Edited by: Bill3000 at: 12/8/05 10:56

[Kaiseress Semisa I]

Bill, Shut The Fuck Up.We exist, and goddamnit I'm going to make the world aware of it.

[david northworthy beckfor]

We don't want none of that defeatist talk round here!anyway, I have posted in wiki before

[Hypatia Agnesi]

Bill, that is easily the single most negative thing I've read from you lately, and that's an acomplishment.For once, I agree with the others and say BILL, SHUT THE FUCK UP. Please note this is NOT my general attitude toward what you have to say, but in this case, stop.Registering your disapproval of the article is acceptable. Insulting everyone who thinks it's at least a marginally nice idea and want to keep it is not. *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!

[UEC]

I wrote a responce.. tried to keep out any propoganda or anything..basicly confronted some of the arguements... Pitched Shireroth as a project , as a political model and an experiment that can be learned from.. and attacked anything they have against the age of us.. as ageism...(that'll proly get some note...)I tried to stay mature sounding.Also, argued that Shireroth is more than just a game or club... that it does exsist, and the point of an encyclopdia is to tell people about things that exsist... and not decide what is and is not real. That Shireroth and micronations cannot simply be brushed aside because people who know nothing about it decide it doesn't exsist. if need be I'll come back with some 1984 references.. E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[UEC]

however.. bill is right about having new people just come and spam with votes... E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Kaiseress Semisa I]

I read the deletion policy last night. Anyone may speak their opinion on the pending deletion, regardless of wiki involvement. If there is a general concensus reached in five to seven days, the article is deleted.As it stands, we're close to even...far from a general concensus.

[UEC]

and half of the KEEP would proly be declared "meatpuppets" because of this thread.... new account, annonymous posts..etc... and reading the precedures and guidlines... they will proly declare it "forumcruft" ie.. obscure and only important to hardcore fans of micronations...and my post may have done more harm then good.. as I think I just in the end made it sound like "Original Research"... I don't think I like the WikiPedia anymore.. I don't like some of their policies... and the community they have seems very.. snobbish.. very full of themselves... they come off as people who think they are intelecually superior to everyone else...ie.. I don't think we are gonna win. there are also POV issues since you wrote the artiticle... I still think it has the right to be in there.. but these people have their own ideas of what is of interest.. and what is not.. in the end.. we still have MicroWiki... and that's something... E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[UEC]

oh.. and Bill.. Shut the fuck up like James said... You aren't helping... it's not wether we can win or not.. it's a matter of we have to try..And.. stop talking in the Wikipedia about micronations.. you are giving us ALL a bad name.. I've been seeing your name in places.. you really don't help. You are to oppinionated and micro-centric.. apollo-centric.. something centric.. and can't seem to think in relative terms... not everything is about our cluster of micronations and how we define things improperly..Than again.. most of those people don't know what THEY are talking about...Also.. we cannot be validated by a third party source... outside of Micronations... We are in no papers... nothing... Wikipedia.. I like the content.. not the people.... E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[UEC]

I think the main problem is... that... we all seem to be of the belief.. that all knowledge is sacred.. despite the obscurity, that even the obscure and unknown is important..to them.. obscure and unknown doesn't matter.., only what is widely known and cared about matters.. I think that's what bugs me the most. If someone wanted to talk about a subculture only known about in a small area.. we'de proly be fine with it, find it interesting...etc.. they.. would call it "cruft"... (not sure what that means exactly.. )... and say it was obscure and unimportant..sorry bout the multiple posts, I'm to lazy to edit posts.. so sue me... ha... you can't! E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[UEC]

yeah yeah.. shut up!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:D eletion_reform/Brainstorming#Remove_notable_requirementThis may be our salvation...no.. nevermind.. they got us on unverifieable.. and POV... and supported by notability... and being "webcruft" Edited by: UEC  at: 12/9/05 16:11

[Harvey the Blue]

I'll do you the courtesy of not voting there but I do unfortunately agree with the people saying to delete it. Wikipedia seems more useful for general information. A Shireroth article there might be a good way to get yourself known but that's not the point of the Wiki. Seems a bit too much like blatent advertising.Regarding all knowledge being sacred, maybe it is. But the Wikipedia is not a repository of all knowledge. They have guidelines and standards and I'm not sure how Shireroth, great it may be, is significant enough to be included in general common knowledge.Interesting development. I want to see what the Wiki does. Harvey SteffkeSai'Kar's Memories LiveJournal - ranting about Shirerothian issues since fall 2004.

[Hypatia Agnesi]

I would actually agree with the comment that was right below yours (Erik) about the article needing a major clip. It's too long with Scott's history in it, but a short article is certainly not worthy of deletion. *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!

[UEC]

ironic as this is... and while I plan to not edit my vote..I'de have to rule against Shireroth if it was up to me.. we don't belong in the wiki.. at least not as the article is now... The Wiki people seem to have a goal in mind.. and articles about specific micronations.. does not fall into it.. plus... going by the guidlines.. we fail to make the cut... I would suggest we just drop it... While Micronations DO deserve recognition in the Wiki.. this battle is lost for now... but we did get noticed... and more nations and micronationalists who make it clear that micronations exsists.. the better.. so we win that tiny victory.. E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Bill3000]

Don't you dare tell me to shut up, ever. If anything, I will refuse to shut up just because of your rudeness and your cursing at me which was completely unfounded for. I don't care if you do not want to hear the truth. (And people wonder why I don't feel at home in Shireroth.) I was just saying something that was inevitably going to happen, and if anything, Erik later on agreed with my position. Having us agree to keep it will just make it worse because most of us don't contribute to wikipedia! The way votes for deletion are handled are more than just votes, you know - it's not a matter of majority, from what I have seen, but a conscenious of those who are part of the community. Look at the votes - some of your votes have been already discredited by people noting that you have not contributed to wikipedia before.What I was saying here is that right now it is futile in the current atmosphere in Wikipedia. Perhaps it would be better in the future if the community's opinion changed, but what I have been saying is that there has been a very long argument about the notability of micronations for a long time, and that the deletion of this article, or even the deletion of a mere mention of Shireroth, is completely within the current consensious of those who participate in the deletion votes in wikipedia.I'd also argue that some of your arguments that you place are not as true as you would think, in particular "but this is the largest and oldest micronation" - that's not true. While it is the largest and oldest micronation in our sector (if you exclude Lovely for population, and Lovely is not really in the sector yet), that is absolutely not true for the entirity of micronations. Micronations is a huge hobby - large enough so that many people do not know of each others' existance in micronations. It's incredibly disorganized, and micronations as a hobby is much older than we think, including internet micronationalism. Shireroth is not the oldest, nor the largest, internet micronation - it is only the oldest and largest to those who know of it, but it is not ancient. There are many micronations that are decades old. This is not negativity - this is the harsh reality of it. Edited by: Bill3000 at: 12/9/05 5:48

[Kaiseress Semisa I]

Is it too much to ask for a little optimism or patriotism then? It's not just here either; you're being rather negative pretty much everywhere.

[UEC]

HE does have a point there.... And bill.. you are one to talk about being aware that there is a larger and older micronational community than the one we exsist in....And I think the history should be removed... and make them aware of it... E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.Edited by: UEC  at: 12/9/05 16:12

[Bill3000]

Quote:And bill.. you are one to talk about being aware that there is a larger and older micronational community than the one we exsist in....How am I one to talk? I have always acknowledged that. I have always recongized that the Apollo Sector was not the first in any way or set for micronations. Instead, what I have advocated for is people's knowledge of the influence the Apollo Sector has on our own sector of micronationalism. Simple example of what I mean is that few people know about the successes of simple Direct Democracy systems in the past, and think that it hasn't been tried much in the past. While I do agree that it's ironic that I am arguing against positions such as "expert of the Anglophone Sector" and the like, that is only because I havn't focused on pan-micronationalism in the least. I have always admitted that there was a larger and older micronational community, even though it may seem odd at first - my entire pseudo-nationalistic rationale was on our own sector, one distinct from simply saying "Anglophone Sector." Edited by: Bill3000 at: 12/9/05 16:31

[Ari Rahikkala]

One day Shireroth will be big and notable enough that it will be obvious there needs to be an article about it in Wikipedia. Is that patriotic and optimistic enough? The league of sadistic telepaths: "There's someone in your head and it's not you"

[Bill3000]

The problem is that would imply we would have like 5000 citizens or so. edit:Quote:1. That its existence is independently verifiable by more than 5 offline documentary sources.2. That such documentary sources are likely to have come to the attention of a minimum of thousands of people in a minimum of 5 countries over a period of years - eg through the medium of popular television and radio broadcasts, and in high circulation national newspapers.3. That it has produced substantial physical evidence of its existence - ie tangible objects such as coins, medals, banknotes, stamps, passports (preferably all of them) produced in multiples of at least hundreds - or alternatively, that it or its representatives have been involved in court cases or other public processes, meetings or ceremonies, for which transcripts or photographic records exist. Bill Dusch - Archon of Soloralism - Founder of TelikosCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'No, you've changed too, Bill. Instead of being the fragmented, annoying and immature 16-year-old, you've graduated to being a well-spoken, annoying and immature 19-year-old. Congratulations.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 12/24/05 19:33

[TonerMan]

Than we should make passports! and Stamps! And coins.... Holy Warrior of NeeCommanding General of the Y.A.C.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Speaking of coins, have you seen Ryan's new money project in MNN? I really liked the prototype bill Nick made, but since there's little chance of him ever finishing it, maybe we should ask Ryan.