SPEARing Our Future

[Rakesh86]

In the name of His Imperial Lordship, the Kaiser of Shireroth. My fellow Shirerithians,We often talk about a micronational world suffering from its own weight and inertia, but it always seems that whenever one leaves and returns so much has seemingly changed. This is true when I read about the launch of 'SPEAR' (Skiron Pact for Economic and Armed Reinforcement) between supposedly Shireroth, Attera, Antica and Natopia. Let's say that I was shocked. More shocked than I was when I first learned about the Grand Commonwealth, because this not symbolizes a breaking of the Mango-Camel Pact, the friendship shared between Babkha and Shireroth, but also a paradigim shift in policy and attitude. When Kaiseress Aure and I worked through the articles of the Mango-Camel Pact, there was an unspoken acknowledgement that this agreement was in response to the Atteran-Politikan nexus; that our mutual defense perhaps would serve as the wall against militarism and terrorism. We understood that despite our differences, we were more similar than we thought and that there was strength to be found in our diversity. So the constitutional monarchy and the feudal autocracy became allies - where our interests, once individualistic, became mutualistic. What did our alliance accomplish? Unprecedented peace, end of the age of terror, disgust for micronational weaponry and move towards unifying the Anglophone Sector. However it seems that no matter how far from the brink we step away, it is just as easy to step right back again. While I understand the level of frustration with the Grand Commonwealth, I do not understand the need for Attera to draw battle lines where none needs to exist. Has not the Anglophone Sector rejected militarism, perpetual distrust and alliances born out of hate and fear? Apparently Not I talk to you as a Shirerithian, one who has devoted time and effort, swear and tears - towards the betterment of this nation. Some of you I have befriended, others I hold in high regard. We as Shirerithians must understand that SPEAR will only lead down a path that is contrary to everything we believe in and have fought so hard for I say this not in terms of our alliance with Babkha, but in terms the way our nation acts and conducts its.Shireroth is famous for its 'Third Way' approach - where realpolitik has allowed us to traverse the myriad ways of the micronational community. Instead with SPEAR Shireroth is simply going to be an unwilling signatory to the machinations of Attera and Antica, the former trying to find out where's its Empire went and the latter tired of hiding its aggressive and militant attitudes. Are we ready to pass on our foreign, economic and defense policy into the hands of Atterans and Anticans? Is our destiny no longer in our hands but the hands of some 'Council'? Can we reconcile our culture and be assured that the Natopians and the United Atteran Monarchies will spread it? What are the principles this nation will uphold? Are we but timeservers, looking for the best bet no matter who we backstab or screw?Are we willing to look at our brother and call him a traitor? Are we willing to say that revenge and retribution are perhaps the most important qualities? My Lord Kaiser, you empathized with the fledgling reform movement and I hope you know the principles Shireroth cannot abadon for short-sighted goals. Great Nobles of Shireroth - you are representatives of the hopes, dreams and fears of the Shirerithian people. Most of you have been here long enough to know that this is a road we have seen often enough. You know Babkha. You know Attera. But you know Shireroth.Let us not make decisions out of hate, spite and fear. Let us remember old friends. Let remember that we are Shirerithians not lackeys of the Atterans or upholders of the Anticans. No one shall dictate our destiny but ourselves. My leader is not the warmongering Prime Minister of Attera, nor the despots of Antica - it is the Kaiser of Shireroth.Long Live the Kaiser.Long Live Shireroth.

[osmose1000]

No one ever said that we support SPEAR besides some unknown who is probably Scott.I don't think that, officially, we should condemn anybody, but remain neutral, or on friendly terms. On a personal level, however, I am turned off by the GC and Attera. That doesn't mean I hate them or anything, I just don't like them. For example, would I vote on a renewed Mango-Camel Pact? If it allowed for some mudslinging and individual opinion, yes, of course. Would I vote for friendly relations with Attera? Yes, of course. Would I vote on something that tells me I am not allowed to not like an ally? No.I say we take whoever signed Shireroth into SPEAR and Iain and have them have a bomberman match to determine who shall be let free. Hypatia's Mom: Yay! I'm legal now.Moose: WE(Shireroth) HAVE NON-NOBLES?![21:11] Bill7D0: It's 9:11 PM. Do you know where your plane is?

[Johanns V]

As an informative measure, I've decided to post the treaty in this debate:Quote:Skiron Pact for Economic and Armed Reinforcement We, the Nations of Antica, Attera, Natopia, Shireroth, and the Union of Atteran Monarchies (Transattera, Syrah and Ecosse-Aersat) assembled together in the name of peace and progress, desire a greater friendship among us. A grouping of mutual friends is required to protect our great Nations, to secure stability for posterity, to inspire current and future generations, and to encourage the opening of the World to our Nations. It is through the creation of the Skiron Pact for Economic and Armed Reinforcement, that we, the Nations of Antica, Attera, Natopia, Shireroth, and the Union of Atteran Monarchies do hope to attain our noble goals. PART I- Skiron Pact for Economic and Armed Reinforcement 1. The Nations signing below agree to form SPEAR, and pledge everlasting support to all nations who join it. 2. Members of SPEAR pledge neither to attack nor to commit espionage upon one another and to encourage peaceful settlement with one another through the facilities of this alliance. 3. Members pledge logistical, military, and diplomatic support against aggressive forces that threaten SPEAR and it's constituent members, and to share intelligence pertinent to the safety of the alliance. 4. In the area of Economics, member states of SPEAR shall work to create a unified, common market atmosphere, and to encourage the free flow of finance capital, services and goods between the nations involved. 5. The offices in each member state managing foreign affairs are to work in conjunction with one another in order to coordinate their diplomatic activities, to pledge support and uphold diplomatic decisions and initiatives, and to resolve disagreements in order to alleviate further dispute through the facilities of SPEAR. 6. All members of this alliance shall support one another's cultural initiatives and work to promote them within the borders of each individual memberstate. Should a cultural initiative be announced, the hosting micronation is required to publish the initiative within the shared forum of the alliance and each micronation represented is obligated to inform their citizens of such an event. PART II- Clauses of Internal Operations Within the SPEAR Council 1. Within SPEAR, each member nation has a single vote, invested in a representative chosen in any manner the nation decides. 2. A non-founding nation may be permitted to become a member of SPEAR, requiring an unanimous Council vote. 3. The Council has the power to pass resolutions to serve as guidelines for SPEAR member nations in terms of defense, foreign policy, or other matters concerning the exterior. Any resolutions passed that involve internal matters of any of SPEAR member nations are to be considered null and void. 4. A representative may vote Aye, in favor, or Nay, in opposition. A resolution is passed by the Council when a two-thirds majority has voted in favor of it. If a representative does not vote within the agreed upon time, his vote is listed as an abstension. 5. Other co-operative efforts that are brought up in the future, shall be voted on by the SPEAR Council structure. The majority within the Council shall be two-thirds majority on all issues. 6. The Council must, upon assembling, vote for a president. Any representative is eligible to become president. Candidates must be nominated and the nomination must be seconded. The winner of the vote is entitled President of the Council. 7. The President of the Council has the occupation of regulating debates and votes as well as maintaining SPEAR's records. The president may serve only one 5-week term consecutively, and may be removed by a majority vote in the Council. Another election takes place once the position is vacant. 8. The articles of this treaty may be amended by the Council through a unanimous vote.Now to your comments Mr. RakeshQuote:Let's say that I was shocked. More shocked than I was when I first learned about the Grand Commonwealth, because this not symbolizes a breaking of the Mango-Camel Pact, the friendship shared between Babkha and Shireroth, but also a paradigim shift in policy and attitude. I'm not sure where you've been the past couple of months, but I'd say this pact would only be making official what everyone except for the MiniEx here seems to have noticed- a distrust and dislike of the GC born from his appropriation of things Apollo and its belicose, expansionist nature. Babkha shifted the balance here when it created its empire without informing its closest ally, not Attera.Quote:So the constitutional monarchy and the feudal autocracy became allies - where our interests, once individualistic, became mutualistic. What did our alliance accomplish? Unprecedented peace, end of the age of terror, disgust for micronational weaponry and move towards unifying the Anglophone Sector.I see no bearings between the past accomplishments of Babkha and Shireroth almost a year ago and the current situation. Furthermore, many of the accomplishments you list are rather hard to attribute to the Mango-Camel pact, which had much more to do with the "alliances out of fear" you discuss later than with creating "unprecedented peace."Quote:While I understand the level of frustration with the Grand Commonwealth, I do not understand the need for Attera to draw battle lines where none needs to exist. Has not the Anglophone Sector rejected militarism, perpetual distrust and alliances born out of hate and fear?Whatever gave you that idea? I can recall Attera, Babkha, and several other nations discussing the formation of some sort of anti-communist pact earlier this year, when the Reds just kept getting more and more aggressive and plentiful.Quote:I talk to you as a Shirerithian, one who has devoted time and effort, swear and tears - towards the betterment of this nation. Some of you I have befriended, others I hold in high regard. We as Shirerithians must understand that SPEAR will only lead down a path that is contrary to everything we believe in and have fought so hard for I say this not in terms of our alliance with Babkha, but in terms the way our nation acts and conducts its.Well of course you speak to them as a Shirerothian, the fact that your name is Rakesh Ackbar, you're a former Babkhan Grand Vizier, and are currently a rather important citizen in the GC couldn't have any bearing on your position at all. Quote:Shireroth is famous for its 'Third Way' approach - where realpolitik has allowed us to traverse the myriad ways of the micronational community. Instead with SPEAR Shireroth is simply going to be an unwilling signatory to the machinations of Attera and Antica, the former trying to find out where's its Empire went and the latter tired of hiding its aggressive and militant attitudes. Are we ready to pass on our foreign, economic and defense policy into the hands of Atterans and Anticans? Is our destiny no longer in our hands but the hands of some 'Council'? Can we reconcile our culture and be assured that the Natopians and the United Atteran Monarchies will spread it?I believe Mr. Siskind best summed up realpolitik in his following Statement to Emperor Tzion:"Hopefully over the next few months we can overcome our former hostility and work together to advance SPEAR - until the next time the balance of power shifts and we end up on different sides, at least"And how would your policies be passed. Based on the treaty, the council can pass 'guidelines' which are mutually agreed upon by the governments of each state. That as opposed to the GC, which creates a new larger federal government, and permits the governments of the member-states no say at all in the workings. Furthermore, I believe that the 'guidelines' don't even have to be followed by every nation if there's a major disagreement! That's a far cry from the picture you're painting.Quote:Let us not make decisions out of hate, spite and fear. Let us remember old friends. Let remember that we are Shirerithians not lackeys of the Atterans or upholders of the Anticans. No one shall dictate our destiny but ourselves. My leader is not the warmongering Prime Minister of Attera, nor the despots of Antica - it is the Kaiser of Shireroth.And perhaps your destiny will also be dictated by Babkhan duel citizens? And you of course owe no allegence to the Shah of Babkha and the Shahanashah-Ri. I believe I've addressed the lackeys issue already.The question at stake here is whether Babkha can do whatever it wants in the micronational community. Attera confronted Babkha over Santa Gertrudis the same way the allies should have comfronted Hitler over the Sudetenland- we've prevented a much larger conflict at a later date. And now the GC is wining because it can't get its way.I for one, will not put up with this wolf-in-sheep's skin act they're trying to pull. Those citizens of Shireroth who value the peace and stability in the micronational world that Rakesh professes to love so much, but by which he actually means Babkhan hegemony, would do well to do the same. Waz ist wunders hie geschehenDaz ein Magt ein Kint gebarHêre übr Engel ScharWas daz niht ein Wunder gar?-Walther von der Vogelweide

[Harvey the Blue]

My thoughts,I do not so easily forget old friends. I've never had too much love for Babkha, but if under the Mango-Camel Pact they acted honorably and held their part of the alliance with only minor incidents, so I was not about to question it. If it preserved peace then it was worth keeping.And then Babkha became/joinied the GC without saying anything to us. Another good line from Scott (paraphrased, as this comes from memory) is that "our chief ally couldn't be bothered to inform us of the largest change in their foreign policy in two years." It's not so much that the GC exists. It's not so much that they claim Audente land, though this bothers me. It's that they didn't think anyone in our government was worthy of this knowledge before the rest of the common world.That was the day that, in my mind, the Mango-Camel Pact failed. Our Babkhan friends forgot us, and so our friendship ended. I don't know if the GC accepts the treaty still, and to me it doesn't really matter. They are no longer our allies.All that said, I really really am wary of SPEAR, in particular this:Quote:3. Members pledge logistical, military, and diplomatic support against aggressive forces that threaten SPEAR and it's constituent members, and to share intelligence pertinent to the safety of the alliance.This is no mere friendship. It's a pact. If SPEAR goes to war, Shireroth is expected to come too. And I'm pretty sure I am not the only one in Shireroth who fears that war will come soon, in some from or another.To be honest, both the GC side and the Atteran are beginning to disgust me, and I fear for the Shireroth that is caught between this numbers game. GC, Attear; do not count us as a resource to be managed in your little campaigns. Shireroth is a free and sovergn land, and I'll be damned if I see us fight for the wrong causes. Harvey SteffkeSai'Kar's Memories LiveJournal - ranting about Shirerothian issues since fall 2004.

[Bill3000]

Harv's usually right with these issues. While my gut tells me to welcome SPEAR because of my Babkhan grudge, my little beacon of sanity that Harvey uses to mind control me (ewps) tells me to find out what's going on. Shireroth is the most important thing here, relationship with any nation or not. It is best for us to find our bearings first before taking any path. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismQuillan Fatebane, 65th Paladin, Lanys Tvy'l Server (EQ1)Quillan Umbarcotumo, 37th Paladin, Innothule Server (EQ2)Proud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'As for... Quil, to be honest many of us have wondered about [him] for some time now. The real question might be why he LEFT the lance there.' - Areania, on how Quillan (Bill in EQ1) let Trombonius 'sit' on his lance"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 5/29/05 22:43

[Olorix]

Nations can dissent from within SPEAR in military conflict or any other conflict. It is like NATO in this regard, as opposed to the Axis, as members are not legally obligated to go to war in reality if other members of the alliance do so. This is not the Grand Commonwealth, and only serves to help co-ordinating foreign policy among friends, as opposed to creating one large nation and interferring in internal affairs (read SPEAR's stance on internal affairs, and you will be pleasantly surprised).I suggest all Shirerothians read the treaty, and then make their own judgements, rather than listening to anyone else's opinions of the treaty. EDIT: AND SPEAR IS NOT Attera's treaty, it was created with equal input from Natopians, Anticans, Shirerothians, Lavalonians and Atterans. Edited by: Olorix at: 5/29/05 23:14

[OctaviusMe]

Just as something to add about the relative non-Atteran-ness of the treaty: Natopia was the first to go public with it. Oh, and during the process, we rewrote just about everything suggested by the Atteran delegation. I'm not saying that it was bad, just... heavily laden with words. Edited by: OctaviusMe  at: 5/29/05 23:23

[Bill3000]

You can stop with all the pro-SPEAR propaganda already, we get it. In all actuality, can we at least just find from our Kaiser (as well as the dumdum who thought Ireland was the most western country in Europe) what's going on? Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismQuillan Fatebane, 65th Paladin, Lanys Tvy'l Server (EQ1)Quillan Umbarcotumo, 37th Paladin, Innothule Server (EQ2)Proud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="Why do I need some cheese?";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock. - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'As for... Quil, to be honest many of us have wondered about [him] for some time now. The real question might be why he LEFT the lance there.' - Areania, on how Quillan (Bill in EQ1) let Trombonius 'sit' on his lance"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 5/29/05 23:38

[Rakesh86]

At least we are provoking some discussion on an issue rather than simply letting 'the powers that be' dictate the future steps of our Imperial Republic. Ours is a shared heritage and future. I will concede what Harvey has said. Babkha may have been wrong in the absolute secrecy it employed with the Grand Commonwealth idea. Sometimes one is so overcome by the thirst for power and glory, that it forgets and neglects everything else. While I hold no power in Babkha any longer nor was I involved with the GC - I do apologize. I hope that outstanding issues can be resolved peacefully in the rememberance of our shared bonds and in the honor of the leaders both past and present that have supported this. Quote:Well of course you speak to them as a Shirerothian, the fact that your name is Rakesh Ackbar, you're a former Babkhan Grand Vizier, and are currently a rather important citizen in the GC couldn't have any bearing on your position at all.You've already more or less branded Iain a traitor, do you want to do the same to me as well? What about Ric? Are you going to have a witchhunt and try to expel all the Babkhans from Shireroth? You have a problem with my loyalty to the Shirerithian Crown - stop making random assertions and make credible accusations. And how would your policies be passed. Based on the treaty, the council can pass 'guidelines' which are mutually agreed upon by the governments of each state. That as opposed to the GC, which creates a new larger federal government, and permits the governments of the member-states no say at all in the workings. Furthermore, I believe that the 'guidelines' don't even have to be followed by every nation if there's a major disagreement! Fellow Shirerithians do not be fooled! What SPEAR accomplishes is but a different way of stating the purposes of the GC - coordination of foreign policy and defense policy. The Atteran Prime Minister would try and make it seem that the 'Council' formed would have no real power to affect Shirerithian policy but read the treaty and make that opinion for yourselves With treaties such as this, the wording is perhaps the most important aspect. Section 1.1 - "everlasting support" for all nations in the treaty - where does this support end or begin? Is it open-ended and and all inconclusive? Section 1.5 - where foreign affairs are going to more or less delegated to some alliance foreign affairs office . 1.6 - where culture can be promoted with a group as diverse as any other. Also look it mentions a "shared forum" . Section 2.3 is perhaps the key part where this Council has power to pass "guidelines" when it comes to external affairs. The Atteran Prime Minister would like you to think that these guidelines are but suggestions, but the definition of 'guideline' more or less binds us to the will of this Council. If the Council says 'war with Babkha' - will Shireroth blindly follow? If this is the path Shireroth wants, then let us clearly say that we are going to become slaves to the Emperor of Attera and the Dinarchs of Antica. I think we all know what to make of hollow Atteran rhetoric - 'Babkhan Hegemony.' What the Atterans want is not some micronational community of love and fluffy bunnies but where it is 'Atteran Hegemony.' That is their problem, nothing else. Quote:This is not the Grand Commonwealth, and only serves to help co-ordinating foreign policy among friends, as opposed to creating one large nation and interferring in internal affairsI would have to disagree. The GC does not have authority to interfere in the internal policies of its constituent members nor does it create any superstate since the powers of any body of the GC is limited as per the Charter. Edited by: Rakesh86 at: 5/30/05 7:41

[Ari Rahikkala]

I think we need to piss off both Attera and Babkha by accepting the extension of Mango-Camel to the GC *and* accepting the joining SPEAR . Jag har glömt hur pjäserna stod!

[Osman Shahanshah]

Battlefield: Shireroth... as a concept it works

[Emperador Augustin]

They've certainly had enough civil wars to warrant an outside invasion for once.

[Johanns V]

Quote:You've already more or less branded Iain a traitor, do you want to do the same to me as well? What about Ric? Are you going to have a witchhunt and try to expel all the Babkhans from Shireroth? You have a problem with my loyalty to the Shirerithian Crown - stop making random assertions and make credible accusations. When it is Babkhan duel citizens going out of their way to ensure that the interests of Babkha are kept by essentially hijacking the government institutions of Shireroth, it is worthwhie to point it out. Your worries of a witchhunt are unfounded as 1) I hold no governmental power, or even citizenship in Shireroth 2) Only people, such as yourself, who are blatently serving Babkhan interest would be suspect.Quote:Fellow Shirerithians do not be fooled! What SPEAR accomplishes is but a different way of stating the purposes of the GC - coordination of foreign policy and defense policy. The Atteran Prime Minister would try and make it seem that the 'Council' formed would have no real power to affect Shirerithian policy but read the treaty and make that opinion for yourselves With treaties such as this, the wording is perhaps the most important aspect. Section 1.1 - "everlasting support" for all nations in the treaty - where does this support end or begin? Is it open-ended and and all inconclusive? Section 1.5 - where foreign affairs are going to more or less delegated to some alliance foreign affairs office . 1.6 - where culture can be promoted with a group as diverse as any other. Also look it mentions a "shared forum" . Section 2.3 is perhaps the key part where this Council has power to pass "guidelines" when it comes to external affairs. The Atteran Prime Minister would like you to think that these guidelines are but suggestions, but the definition of 'guideline' more or less binds us to the will of this Council. If the Council says 'war with Babkha' - will Shireroth blindly follow? If this is the path Shireroth wants, then let us clearly say that we are going to become slaves to the Emperor of Attera and the Dinarchs of Antica.Given the fact that a wrote a good deal of the GC's constitution back before Babkha took what was supposed to be a confederation over and made it its empire, I think I know what the GC accomplishes. The GC was intended to be a Confederated Government, which goes much farther than the SPEAR treaty to begin with, but is now what amounts to a Federated Government with smaller, helpless states forming up, much like the United States was up until the Civil War."Everlasting support" is a phrase oft-used in treaty making, and I highly doubt if anyone takes you seriously on that account. The treaty can be repealed for a memberstate by an amendment in the Council."Some foreign alliance foreign office." Anyone who has read the treaty will know that it mentions no foreign office. It mentions cooperation among the various foreign affairs offices of the membestates. This is not the GC where foreign affairs are completely usurped by a higher authority.The "shared forum" is not an issue, and this is merely an attempt by our Babkhan friend to misportray the treaty. There will be a common-forum for the conduct of alliance business, a fairly common thing for micronational alliances to do. This forum will simply house the Alliance Council and serve no other purpose besides cooperative ventures.As to the issue of "guidelines," I'm not sure how you define them, but by my definition you can't issue a 'guideline' that says 'war with Babkha.' A guideline could be issued regarding Babkhan policy, but as far as actually ordering Shireroth to do anything, that is impossible. And furthermore, it is impossible for Shireroth to become slaves to Antica and Babkha, as all nations in the alliance have an equal voice.Quote:I think we all know what to make of hollow Atteran rhetoric - 'Babkhan Hegemony.' What the Atterans want is not some micronational community of love and fluffy bunnies but where it is 'Atteran Hegemony.' That is their problem, nothing else.Attera is going to enter into an alliance of equals, not a commonwealth with a Babkhan shah at its head. This is quite a far cry from Atteran hegemony.Quote:I would have to disagree. The GC does not have authority to interfere in the internal policies of its constituent members nor does it create any superstate since the powers of any body of the GC is limited as per the Charter.Again, having written a great deal of the charter, which was originally the Articles of Confederation, and having reread the new one, I think I know what the GC is able to do with memberstates. It may not be able to interfere, but it completely controls foreign policy. And it is indeed a superstate, because it adds a layer of government on top of that already extant in the states within it. SPEAR adds an advisory council to coordinate alliance efforts.And finally, as said, SPEAR is not an Atteran organization. Attera is a member yes, but we neither devised the idea, nor was our draft of the treaty used as the final product. Attera will have no more control over SPEAR than Natopia will. We will all be equals. Waz ist wunders hie geschehenDaz ein Magt ein Kint gebarHêre übr Engel ScharWas daz niht ein Wunder gar?-Walther von der Vogelweide

[Sir Iain de Vembria]

Some points of order:Quote:When it is Babkhan dual citizens going out of their way to ensure that the interests of Babkha are kept by essentially hijacking the government institutions of Shireroth, it is worthwhile to point it out.The government institutions of Shireroth have not been hijacked in any way to support the interests of Babkha or any other nations.Quote:but is now what amounts to a Federated Government with smaller, helpless states forming up, much like the United States was up until the Civil War.Helpless states? Not only does each state have equal democratic representation, but they are at liberty to withdraw at any time.Quote:This is not the GC where foreign affairs are completely usurped by a higher authority.That is entirely incorrect. The arrangements for foreign affairs are quite clearly stated in the Charter of the Grand Commonwealth, and prospective member nations are expected to lawfully decide on whether or not to join the Grand Commonwealth on the basis of the contents of that Charter.Quote:Attera is going to enter into an alliance of equals, not a commonwealth with a Babkhan Shah at its head.That is also quite incorrect. The current Babkhan Shah is Ardashir. The current Shahan-Ri of the Grand Commonwealth is Tahmaseb. They are two entirely different people. Chairman of the Sovereign Order of TreesiaBaron of Lothlaria, Count of Mondesia & MiniEx in ShirerothOther things too from time to time

[VA Foghorn]

just a question, sir. Have you read over the SPEAR charter in addition to the GC's charter?

[Johanns V]

Quote:The government institutions of Shireroth have not been hijacked in any way to support the interests of Babkha or any other nations.Then justify your clearly pro-Babkhan actions as MiniEx.Quote:Helpless states? Not only does each state have equal democratic representation, but they are at liberty to withdraw at any time.But they're not going to because all of them except Babkha are dead.Quote:That is entirely incorrect. The arrangements for foreign affairs are quite clearly stated in the Charter of the Grand Commonwealth, and prospective member nations are expected to lawfully decide on whether or not to join the Grand Commonwealth on the basis of the contents of that Charter.Indeed they're clearly stated, and its stated that the federal government handles that affair.Quote:That is also quite incorrect. The current Babkhan Shah is Ardashir. The current Shahan-Ri of the Grand Commonwealth is Tahmaseb. They are two entirely different people. Do you then deny that Thmaseb was, immediately prior to being Shahan-Ri, Shah of Babkha? Waz ist wunders hie geschehenDaz ein Magt ein Kint gebarHêre übr Engel ScharWas daz niht ein Wunder gar?-Walther von der Vogelweide

[Sir Iain de Vembria]

Quote:Then justify your clearly pro-Babkhan actions as MiniEx.I do not have to justify anything to you. However, you still haven't supported your claim that my actions are 'clearly pro-Babkhan'. Repeating your claim without actually providing evidence does not make it valid.In any case my actions have to be pro-Babkhan, as I am simply following the official policy of the Shireroth government which still considers Babkha an ally...until the Kaiser or the Landraad decide otherwise, the relationship with Babkha must be assumed to be representative of the current one with the Grand Commonwealth.Quote:But they're not going to because all of them except Babkha are dead.That comment just shows how much attention you are not paying to what's going on in the wider world. Aerlig is not dead. Alteria is not dead. Treesia is not dead. Lemuria has well publicised infrastructure problems. You should really get out more.Quote:Indeed they're clearly stated, and its stated that the federal government handles that affair. Oh quite true, but you said they're usurped, but as being usurped means to seize and hold by force and without legal authority, and to take over or occupy without right, then what you actually said (i.e. by saying that they are usurped) is completely untrue.Quote:Do you then deny that Tahmaseb was, immediately prior to being Shahan-Ri, Shah of Babkha?Not at all, but what you actually said did imply that the current Babkhan Shah is also the same person as the current Shahan-Ri. Chairman of the Sovereign Order of TreesiaBaron of Lothlaria, Count of Mondesia & MiniEx in ShirerothOther things too from time to timeEdited by: Sir Iain de Vembria  at: 5/30/05 15:18

[Taoiseach Taicardainre I]

Quote:Attera is going to enter into an alliance of equals, not a commonwealth with a Babkhan Shah at its head.The Shahan-Ri is a purely ceremonial role in any case, all power lies with the Taoiseach, who is not a Babkhan citizen.Quote:But they're not going to because all of them except Babkha are dead.Have you been to Aerlig lately? Pfft I hear you say... why bother, cause who needs facts to make an argument! Taoiseach Taicardainre IThe Grand Commonwealth - Aerlig - MNN - Treesia - mncentre - EIFA - Lemuria

[Osman Shahanshah]

I have nothing to offer to this debate except sarcasm. So here goes. If you can call Aerlig dead, order a funeral for Attera while you are at it.

[Johanns V]

Quote:I do not have to justify anything to you. However, you still haven't supported your claim that my actions are 'clearly pro-Babkhan'. Repeating your claim without actually providing evidence does not make it valid.In any case my actions have to be pro-Babkhan, as I am simply following the official policy of the Shireroth government which still considers Babkha an ally...until the Kaiser or the Landraad decide otherwise, the relationship with Babkha must be assumed to be representative of the current one with the Grand Commonwealth.Do I have to justify the self-evident? That's really a weak argument. Your condemnation of the Atteran Empire Act, your failure to inform Shireroth of the GC, which you had intimate knowledge of, your reratification of the Mango-Camel Pact without going through the proper processes to do so. And so on and so. You want to tell me these actions are not blatently designed to benefit Babkha and disbenefit Attera and other SPEAR members?Quote:That comment just shows how much attention you are not paying to what's going on in the wider world. Aerlig is not dead. Alteria is not dead. Treesia is not dead. Lemuria has well publicised infrastructure problems. You should really get out more.Interesting, but would you care to link me to a post made by someone besides you and the Shahan-Ri in Treesia, who I don't believe is a citizen, in the past couple weeks? Lemuria's forums don't even appear to exist anymore. Alteria and Aerlig appears to be more alive, but still nothing compared to Babkha.Quote:Oh quite true, but you said they're usurped, but as being usurped means to seize and hold by force and without legal authority, and to take over or occupy without right, then what you actually said (i.e. by saying that they are usurped) is completely untrue.In the world of rhetoric there exists something called dramatic effect. You have undoubtably heard of it, as when you stated that Attera was interfering in the diplomatic affairs of Karnali. Historically, people seizing on the meaning of a single word, such as Bill Clinton, tend not to win arguments.Quote:Not at all, but what you actually said did imply that the current Babkhan Shah is also the same person as the current Shahan-Ri.I believe my actually quote was "not a commonwealth with a Babkhan Shah at its head." A Babkhan shah implies that the the person is both a) a shah (which is the exact same thing as a shahan), and b) a Babkhan. It says nothing about whether the Shah of Babkha and the Shah of the Grand Commonwealth are the same person. And interestingly, Tehmaseb fulfills both of these requirements, so my original statement is just fine as is.Quote:The Shahan-Ri is a purely ceremonial role in any case, all power lies with the Taoiseach, who is not a Babkhan citizen.Yes, but his whole cabinet is.Quote:Have you been to Aerlig lately? Pfft I hear you say... why bother, cause who needs facts to make an argument! There hasn't been a post in Aerlig's main forum in six days. Given that fact I wouldn't find someone suspecting it's death or at least suspended animation too shocking. Waz ist wunders hie geschehenDaz ein Magt ein Kint gebarHêre übr Engel ScharWas daz niht ein Wunder gar?-Walther von der Vogelweide

[Taoiseach Taicardainre I]

Try looking in the non-main forum, not all activity has to take place there.And if it wasnt for the GC to whinge about, Attera's post count would be almost zero. Taoiseach Taicardainre IThe Grand Commonwealth - Aerlig - MNN - Treesia - mncentre - EIFA - Lemuria

[Harvey the Blue]

Quote:And if it wasnt for the GC to whinge about, Attera's post count would be almost zero.Not a valid argument. If there was nothing to whine about, micronational activity as a whole would be almost zero. This vastly popular thead is a good example. Harvey SteffkeSai'Kar's Memories LiveJournal - ranting about Shirerothian issues since fall 2004.

[Taoiseach Taicardainre I]

So one could say the GC has done nothing but benifit you all Taoiseach Taicardainre IThe Grand Commonwealth - Aerlig - MNN - Treesia - mncentre - EIFA - Lemuria

[Gryphon the Pure]

I am inclined to disagree with the following statement by Johanns:Quote:...this pact would only be making official what everyone except for the MiniEx here seems to have noticed- a distrust and dislike of the GC born from his appropriation of things Apollo and its belicose, expansionist nature.I see nowhere in this pact anything relating to the GC, nor even any disallowance of the Grand Commonwealth to join the pact if it so desires.This pact and the Mango-Camel pact which, by Kaiserial Decree bonded Shireroth to Babkha, whose representation is now handled by the Grand Commonwealth, are not so far as I understand mutually exclusive.And might I please request as Minister of the Interior that this hate-mongering between your two sides cease on our grounds? If I am not mistaken, alliances of friendship are still extant between us Shireroth and the majority of the nations these bickering people represent, and while friendly name-calling is certainly not against the terms of those treaties, I am saddened to see us so enraged by such a natural and neutral issue as PEACE of all things.In short: Shut Up and Respect Eachother.Damn it. Gryphon the Pure- Shirithian Elder - Dutch of Kildare - Minister of the Interior - High Priest of Apostrophe aka Grammar Fuhrer - Director of the Shirithian Census - Imperial Advisor -q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);

[Hypatia Agnesi]

*pickets*Down with the rhetoric!Rhetoric comes in the night to steal your children and your cheese!Quick! We must bomb the rhetoric before it infects our mango orchards and rots our beloved mangoes!Strong rhetoric is a common cause of antler decay in moose, and studies have shown a strong correlation between rhetoric and the loss of chicken spiciness!*hands out picket signs with similar slogans**continues picketing*Come! Stop the rhetoric BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!!! *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!

[Shyriath]

Quote:and studies have shown a strong correlation between rhetoric and the loss of chicken spiciness!*Goes quiet*What?WHAT?!?Puny squabbling mortals, B'caw is OFFENDED by the spice-decreasing rhetoric! Beware, ere he layeth down upon thee the swift indigestion of His awesome wrath! Yea, for it shall flow over thee as thine divinely-ordained diarrhea shall- well, I don't need to finish that comparison.DOWN with the rhetoric! Shut up and respect each other! I LIKE CHEESE! *Pickets*

[Chimaera the Wise]

For the love of all that is GOUDA and HOLY!*pickets* You must only try to realize the truth - There is no sig.

[Liam Sinclair]

Is it just me or did someone delete my post in this thread from last night where I addressed the issue of activity in both Attera and Aerlig, as well as mentioned XXXXXXXXXXXXXX(SHINE says: We didn't delete that thread, but whoever did gets the thumbs up. Didn't you promise not to reveal that information publically? Talk to Scott if you have questions about this.) Edited by: Gryphon the Pure at: 5/31/05 16:22

[Liam Sinclair]

Generally the posts lost were the most recent ones. About half a dozen posts in this thread made after mine are still entact, which means that it is unlikely that mine was a victim of the Ezboard system bug. Notice how there's no "this message cannot be restored" in this thread replacing my supposedly lost-to-the-bug one Sir Liam Sinclair, K.S.G.Kingdom of Gotzborg | Minister of State, Home Office

[Gryphon the Pure]

*shrug* then I have no clue.