That money thing..

[Artz]

Hey, doing some research into Micronational Economies, Shireroth's Included. Wonder if I could get some comments/opinions on:

A) How Shireroth's economy works
B) General personal views on why it doesn't work, or what good points there are
C) Personal experiences with working with the economy and how enjoyable you feel it was

I've heard there have been some negative debates regarding the economy.. and I don't want this to fall into a flame war, or whatever *hums the 'we didn't start the flame war' song*.. but yeah, yay research!

[Icebreaker]

SO BASICALLY SOME GUYS TRIED TO MAKE SOME PRETEND MONEY, THERE'S A FIXED AMOUNT IN CIRCULATION WHICH NEVER INCREASES I THINK, AND THEY TRIED MAKING IT INTO A SORT OF FIAT CURRENCY THING BY REQUIRING TAXES ETC.

TURNS OUT NO ONE REALLY GIVES A SHIT, AND THERE'S NOT REALLY ENOUGH ECONOMIC ACTIVITY TO BE INTERESTING OR FUEL ANY SORT OF REALISTIC OPEN MARKET. WHICH IS TOO BAD REALLY, ANDREAS SEEMED LIKE A FAIRLY COMPETENT ECONOMICS GEEK FROM THE TWO OR THREE POSTS I READ A YEAR AGO.

[Harvey Steffke]

Sup Artz

[Artz]

hmm, ok.. thanks Ice.


Yeah, I heard that it was money for land or titles, originally.. and then some people decided they didn't want to take part in the economy at all. So.. people that did use it, saw people not using it geting stuff for free and thought 'why are we paying, when they get it for free', type thing. So now its failing? That right..?



Sup Harvster.. anything to add, or just saying hi? I have had an account on here for a while.. y'know.. lol

[Andreas the Wise]

Hey Artz,

Cool to see you around again! Where are you micronationally these days?

I'm sadly very busy with exams right at the moment, but I'd love to explain to how I see Shireroth's economy, and will have something decent up by Thursday (when I'm through the first set of exams and have more free time). By the by, what are you doing this research for, out of interest?

[Artz]

Hey Andreas, cheers, yeah.. I haven't been around the boards a lot lately. Only recently decided to give them a shot. Yay #micronations =]

Research is for Normark, we want to try and create a system that works and I've been handed the task of looking at other systems and find out if it worked and if it didn't why not. Then we can get to setting up a basis for when we get more citizens =P build out before we build up, or so to speak.

Plus, its kind of interesting now I've asked one or two people. I generally like the whole community in MN's and how it works.. so learning about how different people feel about things that have been made and just chatting to people generally is quite fun =P

But indeed.. it'll be very nice to hear your feedback for whenever you've got time. I'll also be contacting Gralus at some point with similar investigations into the Gralan economy.. warn you in advance.

[Malliki Tosha]

Both Gralus and Shireroth use the SCUE as base for our economies. The usual problem with micronational economies is that they are too small to work. Even the SCUE is a bit small to generate much activity.

[Elliot Markham]

Well, Doc Artz, I've found that micro-national economies can be enjoyable, but, in a strange kind of Catch-22 situation, tend to require imaginary constructs in order to seem realistic.

[Harvey Steffke]

Honestly I see micronational economies as noting more than a series of walls and barriers designed to tell people they can't enjoy themselves unless they have a certain amount of currency. Sort of like in the real world, except the situation in the real world is kind of the worst thing about the real world so it baffles me why we'd intentionally inflict it upon ourselves here willingly when we could easily not.

[Jonas]

Both Gralus and Shireroth use the SCUE as base for our economies. The usual problem with micronational economies is that they are too small to work. Even the SCUE is a bit small to generate much activity.

And Batavia is using it quite often.


But if there are people who have money but don't want to have it, I'm always happy to get it and invest.

[Andreas the Wise]

A) How Shireroth's economy works
Shireroth's economy is part of the Small Commonwealth United Economy, which brings a number of nations together to share a bank and be able to trade with eachother. Even though there still isn't a great deal of trade, I think this is a huge strength of the Shirithian economy, that it includes a large number of participants by virtue of being part of the SCUE. It seems all internal micronational economies are doomed to fail; but I live in hope that larger multinational economies may not.

More specific to Shireroth, the Shirithian economy has the bounty system. Every month or two, citizens who have contributed to the nation (eg developing counties, doing wiki articles, creating systems, doing their ministerial jobs etc) receive a bounty. In the past they've tended to have an average size of 200 erb, though this can change a lot for exceptional things.

Paying regularlly requires taxes. We've tried a number of things over the years - taxing individual accounts; taxing each Duchy; and are currently on a Land Tax. If the level of taxes and bounties can be balanced right, it should take money from the inactive and give it to the active. The bounty system has always meant that Shirithian's primary income is from doing good things for the nation, which justifies economic power being used for other things.

Shireroth has, in the past, trialled linking the economy to other thing. At one time your money was your Landsraad vote (a bad idea), and then later it let you buy votes (a fine idea). It's also let you buy a military (which works if everyone likes recwar but not if only some like it). At the moment it'll let you purchase titles which will soon lead to Landsraad votes. We'll see how that ends up working.

B) General personal views on why it doesn't work, or what good points there are
I think the bounty system is a strong point, as it keeps money moving around, gives a just aspect to the distribution, and gives a reward for doing stuff for the nation.
That said, not much else happens. I think in general, economies work best if:
a. Everyone wants one (something we don't have in Shireroth)
b. People make an effort to have companies doing stuff (something we've had in the past in Shireroth, but not really at the moment).

C) Personal experiences with working with the economy and how enjoyable you feel it was
I study economics and tend to enjoy quantifying reality, so I've enjoyed working with the economy. Shireroth in particular has trialled a number of economic innovations and I've enjoyed being part of that, when we haven't been in a phase of people who don't like the economy yelling loudly about it.