Ten more years...

[Scott of Hyperborea]

So, we had a pretty good first ten years, but I can't be the only person who feels we're kinda burnt out and directionless right now. Where do we go from here?

The poll gives the following choices:

Keep on doing what we're doing with maybe a few minor changes, see if Shireroth can last another ten years without any major changes.

Become more of a community, like Babkha, where we gradually tone down the governmental aspects and focus on sticking together, preserving friendships, and having fun. But this didn't really work for Babkha, AFAICT.

Focus more on culture and subdivision building. This is what I've been doing in my retirement, and Greg too I'd say. It could help us attract some conlangers and conworlders and keep us together as a country for a while. But the recent trend seems to be away from subdivisions, not toward them.

Epic recruitment drive. Come up with a few reforms to make the place more newbie-friendly, then do something like Kaiseress Semisa's advertising campaign. We WOULD get twenty or thirty new citizens. The only question would be whether we could keep them, or whether, like Kaiseress Semisa's brood, they would get confused and leave after a coupla days.

Become more simulationist. Break away from the idea of "micronation", and work to turn the hobby into more of a game, with more emphasis on stuff like recwar, simulated economy, and the like. Would have to be pretty carefully integrated with the MCS.

Turn towards the Organization of Active Micronations and wikinations. These countries have the same sort of crazy vitality of the old Apollo Sector, and it's never boring with them. If we were to officially join their sector, we'd no doubt be caught up in five scandals a week and three world wars a month. But would the cultural gap be too great, and would anyone other than a few foreign-affairs lovers be interested?

Huge Pointless Merger. I hear Antica is lovely this time of year.

[Daniel Farewell]

Maybe it's best to kick the bucket when we're at the happiest

[Gman Russell]

I chose the 'other' option, because i'd like to see more culture done, AND a return to the traditional subdivisions we all know and love.

[Ruth]

Upon seeing the "other" option I was ready to make a nice "ANTICA!" post, but it seems that Scott beat me to it. That being said,

ANTICA!

[Chrimigules]

Kind of hard for you to show your approval of some sort of merger between Shireroth and Antica with a burning Malarbor, Ruth...

[Kaiser Mors VI]

There won't be a merger as long as I'm alive and breathing.. I can tell you that... Unless it's a merger INTO Shireroth...

I think we need to become less "community" and more government again. It took 3 tries to get a Praetor, that's just sad. We have one entire house on LOA and other not far behind. Honestly, only Kalir seems to have their act together. Mike seems to be the only active member of his house. and so on.

On the note of Kildare. Who's up for a complete ban on Duel cits?

But we do need to get some recruitment going. Scott what ever happened with that optional alternate colour scheme you were working on?

But Scott is right. We need direction. I tried to provide some with my Kaisership. I came in with a plan. And I still have a few things to do like instate proper tax system.

I'm gonna move this to General.

[Andreas the Wise]

On the note of Kildare. Who's up for a complete ban on Duel cits?

There's the "having a system that promotes interesting stuff" and there's "actually having interesting stuff happening." While the two aren't mutually exclusive, they aren't as correlated as we sometimes like to think.

You have done well, Erik, in your reign, to get "a system that promotes interesting stuff." But just having the system doesn't promote interesting stuff; and ... well, if I could explain exactly how to make micronations work Gralus and Nelaga wouldn't be semi-slumping, would they? (or would they? If it depends on citizens and times .... [/micropatriological abstract]). Anyway, there's been interesting reforms but nothing much that I would consider interesting has happened; or, perhaps put better, several individuals have done interesting stuff but nobody else has really picked it up and run with it. And all the most interesting micronational stuff require people to pick stuff up and run with it.

If you want, consider the SCX my contribution to Kildarian culture this month. And probably next month too, once the Batavians tell me what changes they want.

I'd also agree with the comment that it would be more helpful if people were interested in government stuff.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

The duel cit comment was mostly just being snide.

[Shyriath]

I've been sort of wondering about this whole issue myself. I've been slowly working on Sunderspray-related stuff (very slowly, because I temporarily lost the thumb drive I'd saved the files to), and I'd like to develop more, and that tempted me to vote for the culture and subdivision-building; but in a sense, it sort of feels like I'm just passing the time with it, for my own amusement. I don't really know how interested in it anyone else is, and I don't know how useful it's being to the nation as a whole; it's just something happening in isolation. I don't know if any other culture-makers feel that way, or if I'm going about things wrong.

[Daniel Farewell]

I locve subdidivision building Tghats why I stayed in Shireorth so longe!

[Kaiser Mors VI]

"I don't really know how interested in it anyone else is, and I don't know how useful it's being to the nation as a whole; it's just something happening in isolation."

That statement sums up EVERYTHING I'm starting to feel about "culture" and its place in Micronations. Micronations is about interaction. Anything, almost, done in isolation, to me, is harmful to the hobby. I didn't used to feel this way, but the more I've thought about it and talked with others the more I fell that way.

[Harvey Steffke]

I've been sort of wondering about this whole issue myself. I've been slowly working on Sunderspray-related stuff (very slowly, because I temporarily lost the thumb drive I'd saved the files to), and I'd like to develop more, and that tempted me to vote for the culture and subdivision-building; but in a sense, it sort of feels like I'm just passing the time with it, for my own amusement. I don't really know how interested in it anyone else is, and I don't know how useful it's being to the nation as a whole; it's just something happening in isolation. I don't know if any other culture-makers feel that way, or if I'm going about things wrong.

Everyone feels that way.

I tried to circumvent the process by making my culture stuff interactive, thus virtual tours and video games that people want to play and thus get absorbed in my culture ideas, but those require like a thousand times more effort so it's not all that practical.

[Andreas the Wise]

"I don't really know how interested in it anyone else is, and I don't know how useful it's being to the nation as a whole; it's just something happening in isolation."

That statement sums up EVERYTHING I'm starting to feel about "culture" and its place in Micronations. Micronations is about interaction. Anything, almost, done in isolation, to me, is harmful to the hobby. I didn't used to feel this way, but the more I've thought about it and talked with others the more I fell that way.

It kinda depends what our aim is. If our aim is to simulate real world nations, culture building is important. If our aim is to simulate government, then government interaction is important, and culture building is merely a means to an end. If we're just here to have fun ... well, sometimes it is fun to build culture but you want to know that other people appreciate it.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

I'm gonna revert to my old stance, you can't "build" culture, it just happens. We didn't build a culture for Shireroth, it just kinda came together. Sure I might direct it slightly, guide it, but in the end, culture is what it wants to be. Otherwise it's just stories.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

But we do need to get some recruitment going. Scott what ever happened with that optional alternate colour scheme you were working on?

Partly I couldn't get one that too many people here liked, but mostly it's Ari being away and him being the only person who has any idea how the forums work. Licensing exams proly also come in there somewhere. If there's a big demand for it, I can restart that project.

I think we need to become less "community" and more government again. It took 3 tries to get a Praetor, that's just sad. We have one entire house on LOA and other not far behind. Honestly, only Kalir seems to have their act together. Mike seems to be the only active member of his house. and so on.

My aversion to the government route is about the same as Erik's aversion to the culture route: You can't just build government.

Government is a system for settling disagreements. Without disagreements to settle, it's just endless meaningless procedural changes and such. This, I think, is one of the problems behind our current subdivision system - it's not very exciting to be a member of the Landsraad. All it does it let you vote on the Lawbook Rephrasing Amendment #602 most of the time.

Back when we had the big flag conflict two or three months ago, being in the Landsraad was exciting, and I remember scanning the Lawbook for all the loopholes and procedural amendments we could use in our favor, and trying to win other Duchies' voters over, and so on. THAT was the kind of government I could get behind. But that only works when we have a huge conflict.

Most of the time we never have huge conflicts, because with a few exceptions we're too nice to want to hurt other people's feelings by proposing changes, and the few times people do they back down when they realize it'd cause trouble. And I'm not saying this is a bad thing - the flag conflict left us weaker, not stronger, and if we had one of those every week the country would tear itself apart in a month.

Look at real life US politics. They're only interesting because we've got the different political parties with very different ideologies, they both kind of hate each other, and they both do battle on a regular basis. If the US political system made sense or had kind, respectful people, no one would ever watch CNN.

But as long as we're not going to be having any major disagreements that require the government to sort them out, government's going to be pretty boring and useless. And no, really minor disagreements that don't offend anyone aren't a replacement. At best that would make government mildly interesting some of the time.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Well maybe it's time we got less touchy feely about people's feelings. Maybe it's time we did drastic things, got in fights made things... interesting.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Seriously? You want more stuff like me trying to replace the flag? You want more stuff like me trying to get us to merge with other countries? And you want me to not back down when I see there are a lot of people against it?

Is there ANY chance that would end well? Any chance at ALL?

[Jonas]

*Adds 'getting the duchies back' to a list.*

[Falkner van der Sluijs]

Well maybe it's time we got less touchy feely about people's feelings. Maybe it's time we did drastic things, got in fights made things... interesting.

<- this should cover it

[Kaiser Mors VI]

And why would we want them back Jonas? What possible advantage would they bring back for us? Dukes that never vote? Unmovable borders and populations? The inability to vie for power? Aside from some sense of "it's the old way" what's the point of the "let's bring back Duchies" argument? Both system embody a sense of feudalism, both maintain the Imperial Government as it has been for ages. This one just lets us have more options, more potential then the old system.

And Scott, sure? I'm obviously not being as obstructionist as I used to be. Ever since you burned the flag I just haven't cared anymore. That's why I was finally willing to get rid of the outdated duchy system for something with some potential.. if people would just use it. A merger I admit I would still stand in the way of, but I'm sure you could come up with all sorts of reasonable controversial ideas. And anyways one man against everyone isn't likely to cause much trouble, maybe be an annoyance. It's when you get half and half that things get fun. Even a Kaiser can't act unilaterally.

[Gman Russell]

why I was finally willing to get rid of the outdated duchy system for something with some potential.. if people would just use it.

Funny, that.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Which part?

[Ryan]

It seems becoming more simulationist is tying with focusing more on culture (along with BIG POINTLESS MERGER, which is another issue unto itself).

From my point of view, I've always toyed with the idea of automating aspects of "simulation" within a micronation (or for all micronations, as with the MCS) via the inclusion of applets akin to NationStates. Now I know we all have negative associations with NationStates, but that doesn't mean you can't learn something from it. The random issue which a player receives each day (or as the settings are determined) prompts people to remain attentive and keeps ideas flowing, adding an additional sense of interactivity to the nation in question. I do not have the programming skills - but have always thought it would be great if we could apply similar applets to the various aspects of a micronation. Random issues to attend to, generated not by ourselves, but by the computer. Sure, it's not nearly as fun as interacting with other people, but it provides a bit of relief not to have to do all the writing yourself, and for those times where we're either busy or simply have writer's block.

There are so many aspects of this that could potentially be automated that you could, in essence, have a fully automated world at your fingertips. In turn, this would allow more time for writing about culture; something which can't be automated. Weather, environment, religion, welfare, healthcare, industry, commerce, and so on and so forth. All these are topics that could be exploited by an automated feed akin to the "issue generator" NationStates utilizes.

I do not profess to know how to make such a system work. Nor do I profess to know how to program such applets. But I have long advocated - and will continue to advocate - this system in the hopes that more people will become interested and, through joint endeavor, make it happen.

[Andreas the Wise]

Don't you love the Nelagans? They think of everything.

And then proceed to work on the first two things they programmed because actually making a release is nice, but hey, it'll get done eventually. I'm at the stage where programming is a lot easier to go on with than creative writing; so when I do have time, expect programming.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

PHP? Need any help?

[Andreas the Wise]

Thanks for the offer, but at this stage it's probably easier if I get the main part functional myself. I'd got through about half before I hit assessment, and I do have the other half planned out - I just need time to implement it. But I'd be delighted to have help later, once I've got the core built up and we're adding stuff around it.

[Ryan]

Really all I envisioned initially was a glorified version of the original random quote script (remember Menelmacar?) and, instead of quotes, just feeding it a long, long list of pre-written events. Set up on a website, you could have a script fed to a table on a page (and thereby have multiple tables with multiple feeds), with each table displaying an event relating to a particular area (e.g. one for environment, one for welfare, one for social issues, etc, etc). I think having everyone who wants to contribute write up some events would be a good idea; and a way to get everyone's ideas included.

Certainly people with more skills in programming can take this way beyond that.

At least I get kudos for coming up with the idea!

[Kaiser Mors VI]

You know.. with a little grammatical and syntax work.... you could make something that create somewhat coherent random events. Mind you they would all follow a formula... but... yeah.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Random event mad libs!

In the city of [Shirekeep], citizens were [delighted] to discover that [brightly colored] [balls] were [falling from the sky]. A team of local [butchers] tried to stop the disaster, but [contracted leprosy]. The city leadership has told all [children] to be especially [annoying] for the duration of the problem.

In the city of [Nafticon], citizens were [nonplussed] to discover that [icosahedral] [fish] were [launching an invasion]. A team of local [soccer moms] tried to stop the disaster, but [succeeded]. The city leadership has told all [non-smokers] to be especially [random] for the duration of the problem.

In the city of [Kamalshahr], citizens were [enraged] to discover that [ancient] [trees] were [stolen]. A team of local [SCUBA divers] tried to stop the disaster, but [fell in love]. The city leadership has told all [foreigners] to be especially [effervescent] for the duration of the problem.

The possibilities are endless!

[CJ Miller]

In the city of [Kamalshahr], citizens were [enraged] to discover that [ancient] [trees] were [stolen]. A team of local [SCUBA divers] tried to stop the disaster, but [fell in love]. The city leadership has told all [foreigners] to be especially [effervescent] for the duration of the problem.

TRAITORS! YOU STOLE MALARBOR!