Reapplying: CJ Miller

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Having seen the chat involved, it looked to me like CJ was more doing the general Internet thing of assenting to any mildly controversial statements in order to cause trouble than actually being racist, and that the trouble was more that a whole bunch of people dogpiled on him and called him awful names for being autistic, then decided to hate him when he complained.

[Falkner van der Sluijs]

This sounds...familiar, actually...

EDIT: oh wait, I remember now. This sounds like what happened to me constantly but everyone denied it happening

[CJ Miller]

Having seen the chat involved, it looked to me like CJ was more doing the general Internet thing of assenting to any mildly controversial statements in order to cause trouble than actually being racist, and that the trouble was more that a whole bunch of people dogpiled on him and called him awful names for being autistic, then decided to hate him when he complained.

This indeed is what happened.

[Malliki Tosha]

Scott, stay the fuck out of it. Do you consider flat out racist remarks to be "mildly controversial" after we triple checked, you need to get your head examined.

I'm done with this shit, I'm taking this to Erik, officially.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Right. Someone give a copy of the chat in question. I was honestly trusting my sources cause I have a lot of things to do lately, along with RL stuff. But I think it's to the point I need to personally investigate the matter.

(Delegation is useful to a point.)

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Scott, stay the fuck out of it. Do you consider flat out racist remarks to be "mildly controversial" after we triple checked, you need to get your head examined.

Malliki, this is Shireroth. We don't solve problems with yelling and insults. We solve problems by talking it out like adults, or by starting a rebellion, or by ragequitting and then coming back two days later, or by blaming them on Erik, or...the point is, we don't start yelling at each other and making stuff worse.

Yeah, CJ said on the chat something along the lines of "All Arabs are terrorists and should die." Sure. He also said in the same conversation "Obama's name is too close to Osama, so = terrorist." He said all black people who act gangster or ghetto should be killed, but SHINE has him on record as saying he loves rap and that his favorite musician is 50 Cent. He's said "all gay people should die", but only on the same survey where he lists his weight as 375 pounds at age 15. One begins to get the feeling one maybe should not take everything he says entirely literally?

In fact, I ran a full SHINE check on his political opinions. He supports the Republicans in the US, and at various times has backed the Liberal Democrats and the UKIP in Britain. His political compass results (obtained at enormous expense) list him as Economic Left/Right: -1.25 and Social Authoritarian/Liberal: -0.26, which would place him as mildly liberal. He's condemned the British National Party as "worse than Hitler" and doesn't show any unusual signs of being fascist.

We also need to consider the context - this is the same chat where Hesam said of (I think it was) Kurds "They're like italians, only they don't look like animals and don't behave like animals. oh, and also, Italians are god damned animals. no, I mean really. They shit while they walk and don't disregard their own waste". I don't think Hesam is racist, but let's just say it's not exactly the NAACP in #micronations. My guess is that CJMiller thought that casual racism was what it took to get accepted.

All in all, I'd say he's a 15 year old with confused but generally libertarian political opinions who thinks it's funny to say scandalous trolling things and thought #micronations was the place for it. To paraphrase Red Dwarf, "The defendant is not guilty of racism. He is guilty only of being CJ Miller. That is his crime. It is also his punishment. The defense rests."

Now, let's move on to what else happened in the chat room (edited to change flow and remove unrelated):

<hesam> CJMiller, are you mildly retarded? Really? I mean, honestly, you could tell me
<cjmiller> Hesam: Yes, I'm pretty sure I told this channel before that I have Asperger's syndrome.
<hesam> same thing
<harvey> Hesam: he's like 8
<cjmiller> And I'm 15 dammit.
<harvey> Oh.
<harvey> Well okay, back to defaulting to retarded.
<hesam> so Asperger's is some type of retard disease? (he waits pensively for the explosion to follow)
<cjmiller> Asperger's is a form of autism.
<malliki> That is, retardism.
<hesam> Just because no one likes you doesn't mean you have a brain deficiency. It means no one fucking likes you because you act like an idiot.
<***cjmiller smacks Hesam***>
<cjmiller> You're just being dumbass elitists.
<malliki> I know some people with Assburgers. Some of them use it as an excuse to be idiots.
<cjmiller> Oh, so now I'm an idiot?
...
<cjmiller> You refuse to admit that I am as much a person as anyone else here.
<malliki> CJMiller: You're not a person.
<hesam> actually, I refuse to admit you're a person
<hesam> Sorry Miller, We all have a mutual contract whereby we throw rocks at retarded kids. We can't break contract.

I'm going to come out and say that this sort of taunting of kids with mental disorders as "retards" is exactly as shameful as calling a black guy n****r, and that Malliki et al should be ashamed of themselves. I'd have no problem with it if I thought it was meant to be funny, or if it was someone who could deal with it, but Miller didn't think it was funny and clearly wasn't up to dealing with it at all, so it's very much not funny. I've seen one friend with Aspergers attempt suicide because of online taunting, and I have no interest in seeing another.

[Malliki Tosha]

CJ deserved it. Using that you allegedly have Asperger's as an excuse to act like a complete idiot is not exactly what I consider good behavior. I refuse to allow a person who wasn't even there to take some sort of moral highground. Scott, you have many good qualities, but your tendency to always side with the idiots isn't one of them.

I don't like to do this, but if CJ is given Shirerithian citizenship, don't expect me to be active at all here. I have RL friends with Asperger's and it is definitely not an excuse to be a racist.

[Falkner van der Sluijs]

My gods, you guys are cruel >:C

[Jacobus Loki]

My nephew in RL has Aspbergers (no, Miller isn't him). He (my nephew) says a lot of stupid things, but a flash of brilliance comes out occasionally as well.

If we are going to exile people for saying dumb, unpopular things, Shireroth would be a vacant lot in less than a year.

I say let him in. If he does something monstrously evil, evil beyond the pale of a Babkhan on hashish with an Uzi and a machete, then we can grind him into mulch for Malarbor. It is Shirirthian to give people a chance to show who they are, within Shireroth.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Oh, I have nothing in particular against him, but deport him to Ocia anyway - it would pay for itself in comedy gold.

[Jonas]

CJ deserved it. Using that you allegedly have Asperger's as an excuse to act like a complete idiot is not exactly what I consider good behavior.

So? Why should you react in the same way?

I'm rather shocked by what was written down there (not only by CJ but also by others, who the most of us consider as 'grown up').
Your Niftiness, let him in. Or you could decide to throw Mike and other out of the country with Miller. As I'm, just like some others, not very happy with the reactions. And I furthermore agree with Jake's statement.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

So I take it this boils down to the fact that CJ used the name of Guy Gibson's dog in an inappropriate context? If so, yawn.

[Malliki Tosha]

I love it how people that weren't even in the channel comes to his support.

I meant what I said elsewhere. If CJMiller is let in as a citizen, I'm leaving. I know that Harvey proly feels the same way.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

*sigh*

Bill has Aspergers if I recall correctly. Guy annoys me to no end. The fact that Mike and Harvey are this adamant about CJ makes think there is truth to the accusations but I do trust Scott's judgment on many things. Scott does have a habit at time though to support the "underdog" blindly.

I was supporting Mike's view previously. But now I'm on the fence on the matter.

I need proof. I've seen a bit of chat log where he's mocked and attacked in a VERY dishonorable and questionable manner. I can't say I take pride in the behavior of others in that bit of chat log. Now maybe there was behavior that prompted their response to CJ. I have honestly yet to be shown it.

Now, I do believe Mike and Harvey when they try to force my hand with their threats of inactivity. And I'm not happy with the position I'm being put into. If they are willing to commit to such acts, maybe their views have credence. Or maybe they are simply acting as bullies.

I want proof! Not hearsay. If I am not presented with unedited chat-logs, or personal admissions or some other evidence, I will permit CJ in. I will error on the side of caution and admit CJ as a Minor under Shireroth Law (old regulation, but it makes sense in this context), with a Minority period of about a month. If he proves the others correct, I will consent and revoke his citizenship. If he proves himself just as anyone else, he will be granted full citizen status, and welcomed into the nation.

But I want proof. If Mike and others can't prove their case is more then bullying and personal dislike, I will act accordingly. I will treat this as a court case, a hearing. Something I believe Mike can appreciate. Shireroth is not a social club. We have a government, law and systems to handle things. I will handle this as a Kaiser.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Shireroth is not a social club. We have a government, law and systems to handle things.

Err... I actually thought we were a social club carrying on like a cargo cult, but these things vary according to perspective.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Well. Maybe a little. But I kinda would like to reassert the rule of law and the actually government part of this Micronation.. otherwise we are just a forum and not a Micronation.

[Jonas]

Come on Mike, this is getting very boring and childish: "I'm going to leave if... blablabla".

[Harvey Steffke]

CJMiller is an awesome person and would make a great addition to the country. I can't believe you'd even think of denying him!

[Malliki Tosha]

Good one Harvey. People might even believe you.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

CJMiller is an awesome person and would make a great addition to the country. I can't believe you'd even think of denying him!

Doubtlessly said sotto voce.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Harvey: Shut the fuck up. I know your motives in this. And I'm sick of you and your whiny bullshit.

CJMiller is hereby granted citizenship with a Minority period of 28 days. As per the regulations on the matter, he cannot hold official Imperial Office in this time period, nor hold land in Fief.

I will not be extorted by threats of inactivity. Nor will I submit to the whims of bullies and those with personal grudges. I admit I'm not the biggest fan of CJ myself. But I have seen no evidence that he is any worse then Jess or any other annoyance we've dealt with. If he causes problems, then I will deal with them. If a future Kaiser expels him, that's not my problem. But I will not put of with the bullshit I've been dealing with over this issue.

Mike/Harvey, you can stay or leave. The choice is yours. Harvey, I know you openly want Shireroth to fall. It's not even unusual behavior for you. So I don't know if I even care if you leave. Mike, I would be sad to see you go, but I will not be extorted.

This topic is over.

[Harvey Steffke]

If people reject my honest opinion because they don't trust it, they can sod off. It's not about Shireroth falling. It's about a complete twat of a fucktard having more support here than five long-time veterans of the hobby. Why do we even have this totally fucking useless ministry if every moron off the street can get into Shireroth despite half a dozen people saying he's no good at all?

[Kaiser Mors VI]

I hate this job.

[Malliki Tosha]

Then abdicate.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Cause I have other things I like about it. It's just this kinda crap I hate dealing with. I never can win. Somehow I always come out the bad guy, or something.

[Malliki Tosha]

Don't make bad decisions then. Trust people when they tell you things.

[Falkner van der Sluijs]

Sorry guys, I'm still not seeing proof. Provide or shut the hell up.

I'm not supporting him because I'm an asshole, or because I don't trust you. It's because I've seen ZERO proof that he is as bad as you say he is. I let people prove themselves, at the very least. I won't say he should go when I don't see any reason why he should.

[Jonas]

If people reject my honest opinion because they don't trust it, they can sod off. It's not about Shireroth falling. It's about a complete twat of a fucktard having more support here than five long-time veterans of the hobby. Why do we even have this totally fucking useless ministry if every moron off the street can get into Shireroth despite half a dozen people saying he's no good at all?

It's not because you're a 'long-term veteran' that you're more important then anyone else. I haven't seen much proof or reasons to not allow him to join. And if it comes to insults, the veterans aren't any better.

[Malliki Tosha]

Erik wanted me to find proof. It took forever, mostly because the chatlogs aren't that easy to sift through with a slow server and everything. When I complained about this Erik made up his mind anyway, and you see the result here. The bottom line here is that me, Harvey, Icebreaker, Ruth from Antica and Hesam all have spoken to CJ at multiple occasions and for various reasons hate his guts. The main reason for me is that he is a blatant racist, I think Hesam's main objection is that CJ is just a general fucktard, and so forth. The fact that Erik completely ignores this makes my support for his Kaisership fade away. Hence my resignations.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Executive summary: CJ Miller - probably a cunt, but now also a citizen. Gain one, alienate two. A cup of tea and twenty-four hours respite will solve everything (provided there's gin in the tea).