Treaty with Antica

[Scott Alexander]

Quote:WHEREAS the two countries of the IMPERIAL REPUBLIC OF SHIREROTH and the DINARCHY OF ANTICA, having come into contact with one another and and finding their interests to be coincident, do desire to formalize and secure their cordial feelings, they do agree:FIRST, that each recognize the other as a sovereign and independent country, possessed of all the rights entailed therebySECOND, that each recognize the other as the sole legitimate owner of all territory, both physical and imaginary, which they claimTHIRD, that both countries commit to resolve all mutual disputes peacefully, using a neutral third partied agreed to by both should this prove impossible by normal channelsFOURTH, that both countries shall remain open and accessible to tourists and other visitors from one another, barring national emergencies or other such security issuesFIFTH, that proper channels of communication shall be opened between them, so as to facilitate dialogue and future cooperationSIXTH, that both countries shall tangibly demonstrate their good will and desire for one another to prosper by including a link to one another in their respective EZRings.I highly recommend this treaty and this nation. They are a real up-and-coming power, their co-leader Lord Delphi is very intelligent and I have had many productive conversations with him, and their foreign policy coincides with our own very closely. They did have a minor spy scandal with Mediterranea, but I'm sure they've progressed to the point where they won't get caught again Hyperborea votes AYE (3)

[Kaiser Wyltheow I]

I'll go with my usual Yard: Abstain 4 Wylþeow du GrifosThe Kaiser of ShirerothThe gods blessed you with power and a visionThe gods gave you life to accomplish a mission...

[Gman Russell]

BAM votes aye (2)

[Emir of Raspur]

Quote:They are a real up-and-coming powerAll two off them? Elwynn votes nay (3)

[Scott Alexander]

Actually, in the past few weeks they've gotten three or four new somewhat active citizens. One thing I learned when doing the Shireroth history is that as long as you've got a few citizens willing to hang on through thick and thin, eventually things will get better (exception: if those citizens are Mari or Kathryn and the country is Menelmacar or Delvenus)

[david northworthy beckfor]

ignoring the lasat comment, Kildare vote Aye (6) "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[Eriana Moon]

Lunaris (2) Aye Baroness of Lunaris in The Republic of ShirerothBaroness-Councilor of Tallandor-New Barbary in Treesia

[Rakesh86]

NAY Brookshire, (4)Arrogance is the only thing that emates from Antica. We should not bring our Imperial Republic to their low level. If I am not mistaken, are they not the ones that openly proclaim and accept fascism?!

[Mattlore Devious]

Can I have a URL to there forums?

[Scott Alexander]

pub56.ezboard.com/banticaChancellor Delphi has made a statement at the Front Gate, if anyone is interested. He can also be reached at AIMSN Delphi of Lodis. Edited by: Scott Siskind  at: 2/11/04 1:12 pm

[Alexandra Decens]

since i do not know much of anything about them.....ABSTAIN (2) Alexandretta....unless more information can be presented about them... Non-NobleImperial MistressMe

[Mattlore Devious]

LOTH Abstain (6)

[Emir of Raspur]

I wish to remind the Landsraad of the general condemnation of Antica issued by Kieran, of Lavalon and Babkhan Attorney fame:Quote:Office of the Sovereign Prince LavalonI have considered the information before me, including the evidence of espionage presented by the groups known as Medditeriania and Arkania, the official statements of the group known as Antica and evidence of recwarring availible on various ezboards. The group known as Antica- - has previously attempted to initiate hostile activitys with a peacable entity. http://www.okhrana.net/forums/vi....php?t=250 - Has engaged in simulationist 'recwarring', the evidence of which has been largely removed pub177.ezboard.com/fantic...ID=4.topic - is possesive of a Foreign Policy that is hostile to peace loving entitys. pub177.ezboard.com/fantic...ID=2.topic pub177.ezboard.com/fantic...ID=5.topic - has been exposed, has confessed to, and has signalled its intent to continue with the use of an agressive foreign policy that utilizes espionage, paples and other methods to obtain information from peacable entitys pub177.ezboard.com/fantic...ID=5.topic ALSO of relevance: pub114.ezboard.com/fmicro...=185.topic The Sovereign Principality of Lavalon will not engage in relations of any form with the group or entity that refers to itself as the Dinarchy of Antica; The Sovereign Principality of Lavalon announces its intent to oppose the membership of the group or entity that refers to itself as the Dinarchy of Antica in any and all inter-micronational organizations; The Sovereign Principality of Lavalon encourages all peace loving and like minded micronations to re-consider any contact or relations with the entity or group that refers to itself as the Dinarchy of Antica; The Sovereign Principality of Lavalon urges all peace loving and like minded people people to boycot the forums of the group or entity that refers to itself as the Dinarchy of Antica; The Sovereign Principality of Lavalon strongly urges all peace loving and like minded people not to join or engage with the group or entity that refers to itself as the Dinarchy of Antica. The Sovereign Principality of Lavalon will maintain this official stance until such time as the group or entity that refers to itself as the Dinarchy of Antica- - renounces and condemns all hostile activity against all entitys. - renounces and condemns espionage for any purpose. - renounces and condemns the use of 'paples'. Issued by the Sovereign Prince Kieran Bennett on the 8th day of November in the first year of the National Existance.There relevant links were deleted by the Antican government shortly after Lavalon's denounciation (11/8/03), part of the "Dinarchy's" effort to cover its tracks. I also include the Arkanian commentary on the matter:Quote:From Arkania Central News AgencyComrades. The Dinarchy of Antica has issued an official statement concerning the espionage scam.Thier StatementThis statement proves that Antica is an aggressive nation. A head of state would confess to such a crime only when it has become too obvious. The Soviet Republic of Arkania wishes to ask their Chancellor:1) Direct Quote: Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------any micronation who models themselves as a Soviet Republic is simply asking not to be trusted--------------------------------------------------------------------------------What sort of diplomacy are you following? To be frankly honest with you, I have never HEARD of Antica before. So why, honestly, do you have such paranoia? If we never heard of you, then you shouldn't be afraid. And now you have shown the world that YOU, comrade, are not to be trusted. 2) Arkania has no interest in your nation. We have never had any form of talks. So your spying is not justified. Have you any form of justification?3) Not only being arrogant, but you also mention in your foreign affairs law : Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Antica does not prefer to seek alliances with any nations that have strict anti-aggression policies.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------This proves that you are an aggressive nation and that you should be not trusted to form alliances. Your adventurism will cause you harm.Arkania's KGB, is a state security agency. It has successfully captured the spy. Anticas intelligence is flawed and un-professional. The Soviet Republic of Arkania has decided:a) To ban the spy from our nation. b) To urge all peace-loving micronations to watch out for the potential danger of Antica as an aggressive nation.c) To condemn Antica's breach of micronational peace and security, and for meddling in other sovreign nations internal affairs.Signed,General Secretary of The Communist Party of Arkania,SAVINKOV11/8/2003 I put it to your consideration that they are not worthy of trust and I urge a rethink amongst those who have voted aye thus far.

[Scott Alexander]

I wish to point out that the two previously mentioned condemnations were written by:1. Kieran, who cross-dressed as a female elf in order to spy on Menelmacar back during the Sirithil days and then got all embarassd so decided to take a holier-than-thou approach and set up a one person micronation that basically just went around condemning others for doing stuff like (you'll notice) recwarring.2. Arkania, which I believe Shireroth officially condemned for their hacking and stealing the Puritania board (Austi can tell you more about that, if you care to ask). Antica has never been at war with any other country, and so far as I know has never engaged in hacking or terrorist activity, which is more than one can say about Arkania, and has never published an absolutely awful newspaper, which is more than one can say about Kieran. If you'll look closely, its only offenses were:1. Recwarring (OH NO!)2. Having a foreign policy that states that it will not seek alliances with nations that repudiate micronational war (which makes sense when you view it in the context of the fact that then they couldn't very well help defend Antica in case of attack, which makes an alliance somewhat worthless)3. Spying on Mediterranea (during a period when Mediterranea seemed to many people like a threat to the micronational world and when, to be honest, I myself was looking into the possibility of getting an agent there, although I eventually decided it was too risky). If we can't have relations with nations that have ever spied, we'd have to cut off relations with Attera, Babkha, Menelmacar, Karnali, Treesia, and, of course, ourself.

[Zirandorthel]

Thank goodness I had those mud-mops installed in the Landsraad chamber.. Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'TarasGrand Duke of Lac Glacei

[Emir of Raspur]

So Scott, you seem quite set on this treaty with an insignificant bugnation that it might appear as though there were something for you in it. What is that exactly? More to the point how does Shireroth benefit?

[Gman Russell]

Hm... why Scott is trying so hard is because it's his job and his belief.Then again, Why are you trying so hard as well? The worst you can say is, "I told you so" if they betray us... *shrugs*

[Emir of Raspur]

Yes an interest in national security (both yours and your allies) that is my concern here. If Antica gets sponsorship or comfort from any power at this stage it will become the Prussia of this sector. The Duke of Brookshire is no fool on these matters and his concerns are the same as mine.

[Scott Alexander]

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. On the one hand, you say it's an insignificant bugnation, and on the other you say it has the potential to become a Prussia, which is not at all a nation I would not want to be compared to. My reasons for wanting this treaty are as follows:1. I just like them. I've spoken to two of their leading citizens and they both seem like nice intelligent people. There are so few good new nations around these days, and the Anticans have a certain bluntness to their enemies but willingness to cooperate with their friends that reminds me of old Blackrock and of Shireroth itself.2. Babkha may be leaving EZBoard and our status with them right now is uncertain, Baracao wants nothing to do with us, Treesia may be leaving EZBoard, and if all this happens I think it's very important that we still have some friendly nations around. Arminy is an excellent step in that direction, but I think Antica would be another good one.

[david northworthy beckfor]

mmmm.... we should shun nations that spy?we should shun babkha?...and about 3/4 of mcs member nations?(ok, I dont know that they use spys, but......) "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[Rakesh86]

I am very confused over the MiniEx's connection between moving away from EzBoard and loss of relations between such nations (Treesia and Babkha, mentioned specifically).My concerns is that while Arminy as a coming together of three nations has the possibility of success, Antica does not fall into this categroy in the present and one cannot judge whether or not Antica will become hostile in the near future. Brookshire the ancentral lands of many Kaisers is and will continue to support a Foreign Policy where there are standards and we don't recognize and have relations with small insignificant nations. Shireroth as a de facto member of the Triple Alliance with Karnali and Babkha - has the added responsibility of weighing what is good for the Alliance and for micronational stability. Recongition of Antica gives the impression that we approve of them and their policies - and many agree that Anticans must take a deep breath and become more diplomatic and less hostile. Therefore, I recommend that we sit on this treaty and review at a later date. A question for the Chair - what happens if there are more abstentions than votes in favor? Additionally I motion the Chair to extend the voting period as debate continues.

[Scott Alexander]

Re: Babkha and Treesia moving from EZBoard, while I certainly hope that would not cut off relations, I do think it might make for slightly less interaction and a reason to try and look for some nations that will continue to have the same infrastructure as ourselves.I have yet to see any signs that Antica is in any way a threat to intermicronational stability. In the three or four months that Antica is a major player, the only micronations that have threatened war with any other country were Mediterranea and Babkha, with both of whom we have relations and with both of whom I have heard no one suggesting we break off treaties. As for us having standards...well...thanks to my predecessors it would appear we have treaties with Menelmacar and Delvenus, so whatever they are, they can't be TOO high But more seriously, how exactly are they lower than our standards ought to be? They've proven they can survive a while, so we don't have to worry they'll drop out of existence after we recognize them. We know they're active on the intermicronational scene. We don't have any history of their ever having threatened or declared war, they have a nice website and forum, and they are among the rare nations that seem willing to be our friends no-strings-attached.I'm not suggesting we ally with them or anything, but as a member of the same community of nations in which Shireroth takes part, as an active, stable, and well-constructed country that we often interact with, and as a micronation that's part of the micronational world, I don't think there's any reason not to just sign a basic treaty saying we recognize their existence and would like to open proper diplomatic channels. And seeing as Shireroth itself is sometimes discriminated against by other nations that misunderstand us, I think it would be doubly wrong to make the same mistake against somebody else.

[Zirandorthel]

This vote is closed.Aye 13Nay 7Abstain 12Aye wins, with 40% of the vote.This Treaty has passed. Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'TarasGrand Duke of Lac Glacei