Council: Economics

[Mikol Rugal]

With the new economy starting up, Hyperborea has a few decisions to make. First of all, should we have taxes, or not? The Crown isn't going to pay Hyperborea any amount of money for just being here, but we can tax our own citizens if we want the money.Second, Ragum Volak has suggested we have our own little microeconomy. Right now I'm not entirely sure that's legal (though I don't think anyone except the Kaiser could stop us) but if it were to be legal, would we be interested?Third, Volak has also suggested using the Treasury to fund an independent military force of Paladins.On an unrelated note, should we use the name-change script to give each of us our Hyperborean name on the Shireroth board? Be aware that this would apply to all fora of Shireroth, not just Hyperborea.I suggest we discuss these issues for a few days and then I will take out the lexicon, make them into formal council resolutions, and we can vote on them. Edited by: Mikol Rugal at: 3/8/04 12:15 pm

[Mikol Rugal]

My opinions on these issues are:1) No taxes. I think that, considering both the utopian nature of our community and the anarchist tendencies of several of our citizens, it would be best to trust people to occasionally make voluntary donations, which I think they will do. Besides, I can't imagine us needing too much money here.2) Let's wait and see if the Shireroth economy works first. I'd hate to complicate things too much in a way that might hurt Austi's success, and no reason to do the work ourselves if MiniTrade is willing to do it for us. However, I am going to propose that we have a currency system like the Euro or the state quarters, where, although everyone uses the erb, each Duchy can submit its own design for the reverse side, thus letting us "personalize" our money a little.3. Let's see how much money we have first. There are a lot of nifty things we could do with money, and independent military forces are slightly sketchy and probably wouldn't be very useful. Edited by: Mikol Rugal at: 3/8/04 12:25 pm

[Philip Locke]

First, I have a question - how is anyone getting any money to begin with? Is the Ministry of Economy going to give each citizen a starting pool of money, or are they just going to give loans to businesses and hope that citizens get involved enough to make money via private employment?Quote:First of all, should we have taxes, or not? The Crown isn't going to pay Hyperborea any amount of money for just being here, but we can tax our own citizens if we want the money.Too early for me to say one way or the other. If the economy is prosperous and everyone gets involved, then I may be in favor of taxing, oh say, Elwynn. Muahaha!Quote:Second, Ragum Volak has suggested we have our own little microeconomy. Right now I'm not entirely sure that's legal (though I don't think anyone except the Kaiser could stop us) but if it were to be legal, would we be interested?Well, I suggested that Shireroth have its own stock market, with each duchy having its own exchange and currency. And I am in support of this, but we should probably wait for a bit before putting forth any official plans.Quote:Third, Volak has also suggested using the Treasury to fund an independent military force of Paladins.Meh. I was just throwing this up for discussion. If any of us become obscenely wealthy, then this could be a good outlet for expendable capital.Quote:On an unrelated note, should we use the name-change script to give each of us our Hyperborean name on the Shireroth board? Be aware that this would apply to all fora of Shireroth, not just Hyperborea.Eh? Explain, I'm a bit in the dark. Now it's time to kick out the jams, motherfucker!

[david northworthy beckfor]

Quote:On an unrelated note, should we use the name-change script to give each of us our Hyperborean name on the Shireroth board? Be aware that this would apply to all fora of Shireroth, not just Hyperborea.well, when I first started using it, that was a restriction, however, I have the technology to make it work is specified folders.pay me, and I will set it up.installation only requires 2 small line in the custom code "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought." Edited by: david northworthy beckford  at: 3/8/04 5:44 pm

[Philip Locke]

Pay you in Erb or in dollars American? Now it's time to kick out the jams, motherfucker!

[david northworthy beckfor]

herb*declares herb to be the slang for erb* "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[david northworthy beckfor]

as you can see, it works "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[Austi Scot]

I wish to offer to join your economics discussion if only to answer questions.Austi ScotMiniTrade

[Zirandorthel]

I think we should change the names all over the board, our names, that is. It'd make more sense, no? Spread 'Borean culture far and wide.On the herb issue, I shall return when I am in a conversing mood. Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'TarasGrand Duke of Lac Glacei

[Philip Locke]

Haha. Herb is weed. Ganj. Pot. 420. Lefty. Not Shirerithian currency. Although that would be pretty psychedelic. Now it's time to kick out the jams, motherfucker!

[Zirandorthel]

With all that jazz against cigarettes, I'd doubt they'd like us smoking the currency. It'd devalue it for one thing. Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'TarasGrand Duke of Lac Glacei

[Philip Locke]

"The Dr. Timothy Leary Memorial Center for Psychedelic Research and Extraphysical Experiences in Hyperborea"Whoo. Now it's time to kick out the jams, motherfucker!

[david northworthy beckfor]

actually, the more that goes up in smoke, the less there is in circulation, thus driving up demand, thus making the 'erb more valuble "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[Zirandorthel]

But once that currency is being used for hallucenogenic purposes, the puritan population of Shireroth would be up in arms, and refuse to use it entirely. Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'TarasLotter of the West LotGrand Duke of Lac Glacei

[Austi Scot]

This is a wonderful discussion - I once again offer to be a part of the discussion if only to answer questions. I would really like to put forth my views and positions on somethings mentioned.Austi

[Philip Locke]

(Erm...)Volsaarn calls upon Count Scot to speak before the Council on the matters of taxation and the ducal and national monetary systems.Our ears are open. Now it's time to kick out the jams, motherfucker!

[Austi Scot]

Thanks for letting me speak. Quote:First of all, should we have taxes, or not? I suggest you have taxes, both Nobility Taxes and Business Taxes and perhaps any other kind of taxes you can think up. You can open an account for the Duchy and have the taxes collected by MiniTrade and put into that account. Of course the Duke has the right to have the Nobility Tax placed in his private account – as does a Baron who has Nobility Taxes collected from those in his Barony. But hey, if the Nobility Tax causes infighting amongst the Nobility, so be it.The Duke would have control over the account or could designate a different person. Heck, you could even have several different people with the right to spend from the account or you could say that more than one person has to post in agreement for the money to be spent.The amount of money you collect as a Nobility Tax will, at this stage, will cause the income tax for those people to go down by that same amount. However, a business tax would be over and above the income/nobility tax as would any other tax you might impose. You can impose the Nobility Tax as a percentage like is done with the income tax or you can impose a flat rate. The only problem I currently see with you imposing a Nobility Tax is that people might want to live somewhere with lower taxes – but then they will still be paying about 35% combination income/nobility tax no matter where they live – at least that is how things are right now.The business tax you impose might cause you the same type of problem, but it might not. This may well depend on the loyalty of the business owners to your Duchy. (Read in the implications for other types of taxes.)You might even consider fees – with the same possible effects I would think. The idea of donations might work as a method to collect funds.Quote:Second, Ragum Volak has suggested we have our own little microeconomy. Right now I'm not entirely sure that's legal (though I don't think anyone except the Kaiser could stop us) but if it were to be legal, would we be interested? As Minister of Trade I have no problem with you having your own micro-economy. You might have a bank set up here much like I have done in the MiniTrade forum. Perhaps a thread if you don’t have your own forum for the bank. People who hold accounts with MiniTrade can post an order there, in their own account thread, to have the money transferred to the bank here. Then the banker here would be responsible for what happens to that money. The banker here could not create Erb as I do – after all I’m Minister of Trade. But the people here could have an account both in MiniTrade and here. They could have money transferred back and forth all they want. You could even have that account for your Duchy located here instead of in MiniTrade. Heck, people in other Duchies and Baronies might want to use your bank. It would be a private bank.You couldn’t create Erb but anyone could ask to have their bank account in your bank instead of in MiniTrade. The same restrictions that are placed on others would be placed on those who have accounts here .. eg: spending requirements. But as the economy develops I expect people will begin to spend on their own – which will result in fewer spending directives from me. … but private banks are welcomed.The other part of setting up your micro-economy is perhaps creating your own currency. I suggest that you don’t do this as it would tend to undermine the economy of the nation. But I wouldn’t attempt to stop you directly – I might petition the Kaiser or the Landsraad, but I wouldn’t declare completely on my own that you can’t, I just think you shouldn’t do that.I think a business would still need an account with the national bank (MiniTrade) in order to get Erb for the work of those they employ, but perhaps we could work out some agreement whereby the amount is paid from MiniTrade to your bank and then your bank distributes the funds.Oh, yes – I’m all in favor of you setting up a micro-economy with almost all the features that can be thought up. You’ll need someone to run it. Quote:Third, Volak has also suggested using the Treasury to fund an independent military force of Paladins. Now this becomes a different matter. A matter in which I feel I have no say. Use your money as you wish. It doesn’t matter to me as Minister of Trade if the money is in MiniTrade or in your bank. It doesn’t matter to me if you gain the money by Nobility Tax, Business Tax, any other tax or fees – or any other method.As MiniTrade, I don’t care about the reason that people pay each other. Just make a post in your account thread to pay someone and if you have enough Erb – it shall be done. Quote:The Crown isn't going to pay Hyperborea any amount of money for just being here, but we can tax our own citizens if we want the money.As far as getting money from the crown goes – the Kaiser has the right to tell MiniTrade to give any amount to anyone. You can always make a petition, perhaps giving reasons why you want a given amount of funds. So what if the other Duchies then petition the Kaiser, it’ll give Nick something to think about. Quote:Let's wait and see if the Shireroth economy works first. I'd hate to complicate things too much in a way that might hurt Austi's success,It is my view that what you’re talking about here won’t complicate things too much nor hurt my success. In fact I think it would be a good development and would help the success of the overall economy. Quote:no reason to do the work ourselves if MiniTrade is willing to do it for us.If the bank account is with MiniTrade I will do the work. If the account is with your private (oh, hey, I just thought you could have a Duchy bank instead of a private bank – your choice) … but if the bank account is with your bank I will work with your banker. I have no problem with either way. Quote:However, I am going to propose that we have a currency system like the Euro or the state quarters, where, although everyone uses the erb, each Duchy can submit its own design for the reverse side, thus letting us "personalize" our money a little.This is an idea worth proceeding with. With some details this could problem work and even be fun for the economy. Quote:First, I have a question - how is anyone getting any money to begin with? Is the Ministry of Economy going to give each citizen a starting pool of money, or are they just going to give loans to businesses and hope that citizens get involved enough to make money via private employment?In the past I have seen micronations start up economies by granting each bank account holder a given amount – from 1000 to 10,000 or more. I have also seen these simulated economies start up by declaring how much money they have – usually it was 1 million of whatever the currency was declared. I have decided to not hand out a pool of money. Instead each person in the economy goes to work for a ministry or business (anyone can form a business). The business or ministry receives 500 Erb for each person they employ, each time payday comes. If a person works for several different places – then the 500 Erb is divided between those businesses or ministries.How much a person is paid by that business or ministry is their wage and is not decided by me as MiniTrade – it is between the person and where they work. However, the business or ministry doesn’t get any Erb if the person doesn’t pay their bills or if the business or ministry doesn’t pay its bills. Payday occurs at the same time for everyone, thus making it fair from the view of MiniTrade – but payday is not yet a consistent day of the week or every two weeks. However, it appears that most businesses and ministries aren’t paying their employees. I guess some people more time to catch on to all this. Quote:Well, I suggested that Shireroth have its own stock market, with each duchy having its own exchange and currency. And I am in support of this, but we should probably wait for a bit before putting forth any official plans. I was going to run the stock market but then SSFSX posted a long script – much like I often do – about how a stock market should run. It wasn’t the way I was going to run the stock market but so what. I’m not in favor of each Duchy having it’s own currency because I think it will undermine the national economy. I don’t know what SSFSX thinks about each Duchy having its own stock exchange. I think there aren’t enough people in Shireroth to make worth the work – but it doesn’t bother me if it happens.OK, that about sums up my comments about what has already been said. If there are any questions for me I will attempt to answer them.Austi

[Philip Locke]

Thank you, Count. You've given me quite a few ideas. I'm hopeful that Shireroth may be the home of Micras' first working economy.I'll prolly respond point-by-point later.

[Austi Scot]

ok, where I left a word out - just think it in. Where I said the wrong word - just think the right word.Austi

[Scott Alexander]

Okay...so...we never did decide...taxes or not?

[david northworthy beckfor]

tax the people!(especially ardishar) "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[Zirandorthel]

I think that all money made by citizens should go into a communal bank account, and then that bank account is taxed by the Duchy according to how many citizens are in the Duchy at the time. Basically we have two different accounts:- Citizens Account- Duchy's AccountAll personal accounts for Hyperborean citizens are merged into the Citizens Account, and if a Hyperborean citizen is employed in a business, the money goes to that account.I think that aswell as making good economic sense, this system truly represents the communal responsibility within Hyperborea. Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'TarasLotter of the West LotGrand Duke of Lac Glacei

[Austi Scot]

For sure - tax - MiniTrade needs you establish a Duchy tax system. ... I say tax em!