On Goldshire's vote distribution

[Santelran Rottsaa]

Since Leo is joining us, here's the new allocation.

Duke Aryeztur (3)
Leo (3)
Harvey (3)
Vasroe (1), with the Duke reserving the right to vote for Vasroe if he doesn't vote

Sorry, Aryeztur, you have to have at least 5 of the votes, iirc.

[Malliki Tosha]

No Lesser Noble may have more than five votes, but Aryeztur must have at least one more vote than his Lesser Nobles.

1. Each Duke is allocated 10 votes that they may cast, or assign to subordinate nobles.
2. A Duke must always have the largest single vote amongst himself and his lesser nobles.
3. A Lesser noble may never have more then 5 votes.

[Santelran Rottsaa]

Regardless, he's still in violation, then.

[Malliki Tosha]

And was the point of the reform that nearly everyone would be allowed to vote in the Landsraad?

At the moment, 3 of 4 Goldshirians can vote, 3 of 4 Brookshirians and 4 of 5 Elwynnese can vote. This is what most would call some form of democracy.

There seems to be a trend growing in Shireroth. I would call it status dilution. What will there be left to strive for if everyone is let into the Landsraad, or if it takes two weeks to become Duke? These positions should be something to covet, something reserved for only the most active and most trusted citizens. The Landsraad is losing its status, as well as the position of Duke. I ask that all support my proposal in the Landsraad.

[Kaiser Leto III]

Which proposal?

[Malliki Tosha]

http://shireroth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12528

[AryezturMejorkhor]

The votes in Goldshire have been adjusted to fit the law. But if Malliki's new bill pases, this may be irrelevant.

[Malliki Tosha]

Yep. And the bill is not aimed at Goldshire specifically, since Brookshire does pretty much the same thing. It is aimed at the restoration of the status of the Landsraad.

[Erik Mortis]

Rather conservative of you.

[Malliki Tosha]

I have my moments.

[AryezturMejorkhor]

And its rather liberal of me to want to oppose Malliki on this one.

[Erik Mortis]

We didn't even have the system a month before we tried to get rid of it. Forgetting the reasons for getting it in the first place.

[Harvey Steffke]

Screw the "status of the Landsraad;" we hit 100 posts this last month, at a time when people are always claiming they're busy with holidays and stuff. Whatever you want to say about the disintegration of values or some crap, the fact is that people are INTERESTED in Shireroth right now. The constant Duke turnovers, duchy reformations and cultural... ah... let's call it "friction"... the legal battles surrounding Corey, the addition of two new territories. People have never had more opportunities and chances to really get into Shireroth and mix it up. It seems silly to intentionally break the status quo for any reason other than quantitative proof that it's no longer working.

[Malliki Tosha]

The 100 PPD count was hardly due to the structure of the Landsraad.

In general though, I find Shireroth to be the most fun micronation I've ever been involved in, and I've been in the hobby on-and-off for 10 years. It's only here that you can check the forum, go do something else for an hour, come back and have 10 new posts.

[Erik Mortis]

And in order to keep being able to do that.. there needs to be reasons for people to come, interact, feel they have SOMETHING to do. The system we have now allows for that. The problem isn't to many votes.. it's to few citizens. Go recruit instead of ripping away people's ability to participate.

(I was neutrally against this but Harvey's words have swayed me)

[Malliki Tosha]

I don't link activity with handing out Duchies and Landsraad votes like candy.

Before, people were content with having a county and trying to develop it. Maybe get a Barony and perhaps some counts. A Duchy would be great after a couple of months, and the right to speak in the Landsraad.

Now, everyone and their mother is at least a Baron, and nearly everyone have Landsraad votes. I call that status inflation. Why strive to improve when you get everything anyway?

[Harvey Steffke]

I don't link activity with handing out Duchies and Landsraad votes like candy.

Unproven elitist rhetoric of the rest of your argument aside, what exactly DO you link the incredible boost of activity to?

Here, I'll bother to do your own research for you this time. Statistics from the ForumList, detailing posts per day.

Code: Select all

01/08/2009 	110152 	1018 	31 	32.839
01/09/2009 	110696 	544 	31 	17.548
01/10/2009 	111376 	680 	30 	22.667
01/11/2009 	113526 	2150 	31 	69.355
01/12/2009 	116262 	2736 	30 	91.2
01/01/2010 	119390 	3128 	31 	100.903

Duchy swapping started happening in November. August and September were low. October was up, yes, but what maintained and nearly doubled the activity if not the political shifting of the next two months? Do you have any alternate proposals? And before you claim that it's some sort of seasonal thing, I urge you to look at the rest of the Forumlist data, which incidates that July and August were peak months last year and there was a rapid fall off in the winter, as is often the case with seasonal trends as people get more busy with school in the winter and eventually go on holidays and don't spend time at their computers.

I can't believe I'm the only one that takes a quantitative approach to things like this. Feelings and meanings are all nice, but sooner or later you have to see what works and what does in a realistic sense. I'm the only person that has any actual FACTS on my side to support my position while the entire other side is just blowing smoke rings around personal opinions.

[Kaiser Leto III]

So, what you mean, Harvey, is that we should get rid of the system when the number of posts (made in a month) get lower?

[Malliki Tosha]

The research supporting your position is not mine, it's yours. Learn the difference. My research will be presented soon, and I promise to reverse my opinion regarding the reason for the heightened activity if it turns out that Harvey is right.

[Malliki Tosha]

The other side maintains that the reason for the heightened activity is allowing Lesser Nobles to vote in the Landsraad. That is the only logical conclusion that I can find, since that is the only thing I am attempting to remove, and therefore, should be the reason for the opposition by the other side. This will be the basis for my research, an attempt to refute that position. I do not factor in "Duchy swapping" since I am in no way attempting to change the rules regarding Ducal succession.

[Malliki Tosha]

To draw the conclusion that there is a causal relationship between the heightened activity during October, November and December, as measured in the PPD count, and the passage of the new voting system, that passage would have to precede the increase. If it does not, I hold that there can be no causal relationship.



This image clearly shows that the restructure did not precede the increase in activity. I therefore hold that there can be no causal relationship between the restructure and the increase in activity.

EDIT: I can concede that the restructure might have had a reinforcing effect on the increase, but I consider that to be somewhat refuted by my second diagram.

(Note: The value for the time of the restructure, which was November 25th (the passage of the restructure bill), is chosen arbitrarily to fall between the preceeding and following values, and does not represent any "real" or empirically measured value.)

The following diagram shows posters in the Landsraad since the restructure:



The only non-Dukes (although I was a Duke for part of that time) that seem to benefit from the restructure are myself and Erik, as well as Harvey and Leo, although to a much lesser degree. Many of those posts are single-line voting posts.

My position is that there are other reasons behind the activity increase, and that the restructure had little or no effect on activity. I hold that the main reasons behind the increase, although I can't show it in diagrams, are the Malliki-Aryeztur conflict, the Erik-Kaiser conflict, and the number of highly controversial bills introduced in the Landsraad during this period. This has, however, not generated any activity from the Lesser Nobles (with certain and few exceptions, although those are not due to the restructure) to speak of.

The right for Lesser Nobles to vote in the Landsraad has had little or no effect on activity. To remove that right would in no way be negative for activity in the Landsraad, since the Lesser Nobles that do participate can still do so without being able to vote. I also find it unlikely that activity in general will drop if the Lesser Nobles lose their Landsraad votes.

[Kaiser Leto III]

You can't put the Kaiser in the 'others'-category! The Kaiser demands his own category on the nice diagram!

[Malliki Tosha]

Better?

[Kaiser Leto III]

The Kaiser has been satisfied.

[Erik Mortis]

Your own diagrams show that you are about to remove over half if not 3/4th of the participation from the Landsraad.

And you admit the restructure added, if even part, to activity. So... why remove even that part? Does not every little bit help? What happens when we remove a little here.. and little there.. till we drop below the threshold and drop into inactivity?

[Malliki Tosha]

Yeah...

I am not about to remove anything from the Landsraad, except the Lesser Nobles' votes. I forgot about the amendment to the first section, which I now have dealt with in the other amendment.

[Erik Mortis]

Because removing votes is removing nothing...

[Malliki Tosha]

Yeah...

I am not about to remove anything from the Landsraad, except the Lesser Nobles' votes. I forgot about the amendment to the first section, which I now have dealt with in the other amendment.

[Erik Mortis]

Yes... even an exception is still doing something. Except is a word. The fact remains.. you ARE removing something.

[Malliki Tosha]

Hence the except.