Return to the old ways.

[UEC]

I feel we should return to the old system of duchies. Where the Duchy was defined by the Kaiser, and the Duke appointed by the Kaiser. That Duchies got divided into smaller units. And if a Duke isn't doing their job, they are replaced by the Kaiser with someone who CAN do the job.However, I believe we should keep the county divisions and people getting counties.And people within a Duchy may form baronies, with aproval of their Duke. And the vote distrobution shall remain as it is now. Except, Dukes will get their barons votes added to their total, BUT barons still get their votes and cannot have them removed. However, Dukes may disolve baronies.Let me rewrite that and modify:Dukes get 2 votes for being Duke, 1 vote for every county with a count in their duchy(this includes their personal county). and 1 vote for every Baron in their Duchy.Barons get 1 vote for being baron, and one vote for each county with a count in their barony(this includes their personal county).This means a Duke will always have a few more votes than their barons, put together, thus they remain supreme over the barons. But Barons can be more "representative" of the people inside their Barony.This is accually a fussion of the old system and the new, and essecially creates two levels to the Landsraad, One appointed, and one....*grumbles*..."Elected". If one set of nobles fails, the other can take over. Thus we have another system of nobles to fall back on if one of them fails. Just like we have the Kaiser and the Landsraad, we can fall back to one if the other fails/vanishes. and even with the Kaiser/Steward, we have one to fall back on if the other fails. Or the Ministers and the Kaiser, One to fall back on.. if the other fails. (well, more if the minsters fail, we fall back to the Kaiser) ..Or the appointment of Ministers, we can have the Landsraad do it, or the Kaiser... The Praetor or the Kaiser, with no Praetor, it, by tradition, falls to the Kaiser to manage the Landsraad till another is elected. It's all about duality. On every Level.The Duchies of Elwynn(would include Hyperborea), Kildare, Yardistan and Brookshire(will include Goldshire) shall be the 4 duchies. All of which will include their historically included lands. (Antica would go to Kildare or Yardistan)Transition maping:Naudia'Deva becomes Brookshire (with NorthernBrookshire)Elywnn becomes Elwynn (with all current baronies)Kildare becomes Kildare (with Antya and all it's current baronies)Holy Lands of SHireroth become Yardistan.Antica would go into Yardistan as a Barony.Northhold goes into Brookshire or Elwynn as a baronyOld Goldshire lands go to Brookshire.LOTH, as in the past goes to Yardistan. (so does Mar Sara)Jaris goes to Elywnn.I feel the new system is to much like Democracy. And while some of you think that's the best thing since sliced bread, it is unstable. Shireroth was not reborn as a Monarchy for no reason you know. There was a point to the Kaiser, and the way the Landsraad worked way back when.I call for the return to the old Duchy down divisions model on the Imperial Level, and the County up division model within a Duchy.While this would require a massive burst of decree from a Kaiser, well written and planned out, direct editing of the Lawbook by the Kaiser (which is more then legal, and is how the Lawbook came to exist), I don't feel it would be too radical a plan. The landsraad would effectively not change much directly, but if the dukes are not active enough, they will be removed. And Barons being set by creation of Baronies by counts, will be as people choose them to be. The Landsraad would still need to pull it together, when it comes to the people within it. I think the current problem now is that the current system was not fully initiated. If the Landsraad passed a single act stating they, for a one time shot, gave the Kaiser the authority to set vote distrobution; it could all be implimented in an hour of posting. The Charter would need no edit, and the DecreeBook little to none. This would remove the problem of having a system only half implimented. Use the greatest legislative tool we have in the nation, the supreme power of the Kaiser, to put everything in place. This is what has always been done for major changes in the past, and it worked flawlessly,(when it was good system, and well written) because democracy is slow and inconsistant in its results. All democracy is inherent to these flaws and no matter of timing precedures will make a difference, and letting everyone vote like Bill might like, will only make the stagnation worse. Or even worse.. Mob rule like the FIoJ... E. Metzler (UEC)Count of Monty CriscoFounder of the MCS"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSJoin ShirerothEdited by: UEC  at: 12/12/05 22:32

[Hertug Gordon II]

Quote:And the vote distrobution shall remain as it is now. Except, Dukes will get their barons votes added to their total, BUT barons still get their votes and cannot have them removed. However, Dukes may disolve baronies.Let me rewrite that and modify:Dukes get 2 votes for being Duke, 1 vote for every county with a count in their duchy(this includes their personal county). and 1 vote for every Baron in their Duchy.Barons get 1 vote for being baron, and one vote for each county with a count in their barony(this includes their personal county).I think there is a fine line in granting a duchy too many votes for their baronies- effectiviely giving them double votes because the baronies vote on their own as well. I think this is a good system, and when Baronies and Duchies were asked to come up with a new political system for the Landsraad this is very similar to what I had in mind. I think this idea is good except I disagree with it on a couple of points:I like the current system of self formating baronies and duchies. The major advantage to Kaiser appointed duchies is that is creates the allegiance which is critical to a vassal system. However, it could lead to instability if a Kaiser constantly changes Duchy's. In reality, your suggestion may create more changes than in self created duchies like there are now in which the Duke is pretty much stable.Like I said in the other thread, I think political entities should have the right to divide their votes. If a barony has 4 votes, they can split them 3-1 or 2-2 or however the barony decides to split their votes based on their own political system. There is also the question which you alluded to in that baronies must be part of a duchy. While I think this makes natural sense, I do not know if it is necessary.

[UEC]

I'm trying to find a balance between the "new" system and the old one. The new one had the effect of stability, which is what has kept this nation alive this long. But the new system does have the advantage of potentially including more people.splitting votes may sound nice, and I don't complely disagree, but it makes like a bitch for the Praetor, as I mentioned elsewhere, trust me, I've done it... if votes are split it makes things harder to keep track of.The thing is, I do like the idea of independent Baronies, but it doesn't make sense in a feudal hiarchy. And it is in the end, in the best interest for a Barony to be within a Duchy, even now.I think as long as we keep sensible Kaiser's in power, and sensible Dukes in place, we won't have the constant swapping problem which you, rightly, point out as possible. This is accually what used to be done, and over-frequent rotation of Dukes was never a problem. As it stands now though, I believe Elwynn swaps dukes every month or so... My oppinion is that the current system is to... loose. I think we need to put back some of the regidity of the old system, but still allow for flexibility. E. Metzler (UEC)Count of Monty CriscoFounder of the MCS"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSJoin Shireroth

[Hertug Gordon II]

Yeah I feel the same way. I think a balance is good, and independent baronies does make no sense because everyone should be a vassal of the Kaiser in the social hierchy. My idea is not necessarily splitting votes, but each voting entity has its own decision who they want to vote and how they want to use their votes.

[UEC]

The vote "spliting" issue continues in this thread. E. Metzler (UEC)Count of Monty CriscoFounder of the MCS"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSJoin ShirerothEdited by: UEC  at: 12/13/05 1:59

[RicLyon]

ErikI think your proposal is interesting, but I'm still not sure how the vote distribution would go.If we can expand on your idea a bit more we might actually have a ready proposal to give the Kaiseress and the Nobles of Shireroth. Richard LyonYansha Elaer Kyon gef ShanPernem kahn gef kuymal per varga stiPernem kahn gef varga per kuymal sti

[david northworthy beckfor]

"It's all about duality. On every Level.":where'sthethumbsupemoticon?

[AngelGuardian93]

Call me radical (Oh, wait, you have), but I rather like the new system. We just need to figure out the apparent voting problem, and let the duchies do their own thing. That's how it's allways been, but it's just codified a bit more now. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[UEC]

I think the current system has more than vote problems... E. Metzler (UEC)Count of Monty CriscoFounder of the MCS"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSJoin Shireroth

[Kaiseress Semisa I]

The problem I have with your system, Erik, is that it has no maneuverability. The territories themselves are very static; I prefer the modular system we have now, where we can watch different states rise and fall within the nation.Of course, none have fallen yet, but they will.

[AngelGuardian93]

Yup. Sooner or later. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[david northworthy beckfor]

hence my proposed changes to what erik said?

[TonerMan]

Yes.. but that is to loose. The current system is to lose.This allows for manuverability, but puts in place an over arching level of stability.As it stands now we have made the nation a more or less true republic and legalized political parties again. This change of rigid duchies and fluid baronies would minimize this problem. Holy Warrior of NeeCommanding General of the Y.A.C.

[Kaiseress Semisa I]

I still don't understand what's different in your proposal than what we had before the New Feudalism.

[david northworthy beckfor]

having all contiguos land is not really like historical fuedalism....look at burgundy...france/england/normans pre 100 years way.....the haburgs

[TonerMan]

One of the things I feel we need to do is reconsolidate land, make duchies once again a land based entity, and not a political entity. Restore the feudal aspects that we lost with the new feudalism.The problem with this completely modular system are those I mentioned above. This system still allows for modularness within Duchies, and keeping the Duchies small in number means they will have more people each, from whom can band together.My proposal also doesn't split any of the current groups (except that the Holy Lands become Yardistan again), and in the future, new comers can pick which duchy best fits their personality, and make alliances within it.What I'm proposing is the static, such as we had before, or basicly chaotic like we have now, it is the moderation. It is stable on the top levels, where it is needed, and fluid on the lower levels, where it isn't dangerous to the stability of the nation. It keeps the democracy at a reasonable level, and keeps the feudalism intact. Holy Warrior of NeeCommanding General of the Y.A.C.Edited by: TonerMan at: 12/13/05 18:58

[AngelGuardian93]

I will speak prophecy: Shireroth is a circle. Keep this in mind. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[UEC]

umm.. ok...It's different in Dukes don't ever pick Barons...among other things.. and gives Barons more freedom, more votes..etc.. E. Metzler (UEC)Count of Monty CriscoFounder of the MCS"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSJoin Shireroth

[Sebastien Alexandre]

So what yoru saying, Erik, is put mor epower into a sole figure?What happens when a Kais (er/ess) goes corrupt? Or inactive?Then the entire thing is thrown into anarchy.Semi democracy promotes activity, yet I still see the Golden Mangle Throne at the top - I see no problem with how things are running.

[TonerMan]

Oz....If you hate the Kaisership so much... why are you here? Holy Warrior of NeeCommanding General of the Y.A.C.