Hurmu Holyfication Bill 3801

[Malliki Tosha]

In accordance with the Treaty of Association and Friendship between the Imperial Republic of Shireroth and Hurmu, I propose the following amendment to the LawBook, Chapter X, Section B:

B: Holy Land
1. The following lands shall be known as Shirerithian Holy lands:
a. The Isle of Amity.
b. The Isle of Mirioth.
c. The Isles of the Khaz Modan.
d. The Isle of Naudia'Diva
e. The lakes of Hurmu and the surrounding lands.

[Daniel Farewell]

A great proposal.

Brookshire - Aye (6)

[Malliki Tosha]

G. Lakhesis (2) - Aye

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Straylight, which still exists until someone officially decides it doesn't, wants to know the reasoning behind this bill.

Hurmu may well be sacred to the Hurmudans, but everywhere is sacred to the people who live there. The Hyperboreans hold their whole island and especially Mt. Yaanek sacred. The constitution of Goldshire lists its central mountains and forests as sacred lands, and the new Aryezi rulers certainly have their own holy sites. Araxion is holy to the Treesians and Elw, who believe their god Utas once lived there, and Smor...Smjr...Smjk...that Natopian place is sacred to their Butter Cow. Even we in Straylight have a few deluded hippies who like to dance naked in the sanct of Blavatsky...although we've put a stop to that sort of thing after what happened to the last group.

As far as I know, the list of Shireroth's Holy Lands is for places holy to Cedrism only, plus Naudia'Diva which Kaiseress Semisa snuck on there because she was Kaiseress and could get away with it.

Maybe instead of declaring more Holy Lands, we should be figuring out a purpose for that section of the Lawbook.

However, I fully support the word "holyfication", and using it as often as possible.

[Daniel Farewell]

For Hurmu, it's always been the case that unlike Lontinien, the Lake District is, and has always been, sacred. There is an old order in Hurmu, the Order of the Holy Lakes which began as an embryo to the former Senate of Hurmu.

As such, the Lakes and their surrounding lands have always been held demilitarized and been highly respected.

However, I'm leaning towards agreeing with Straylight on this matter. Perhaps we need to put in a definition of holy and what that implies.

For me, I've sort of felt that holy places are protected by the government and generally are demilitraized. This was the case in Hurmu, when under the yokes of Stormark. To please our yearning desire for freedom, Stormark decided to enact laws keeping the lakes "sacred".

Also, the fact remains that the treaty signed by Mr Baarrnan and Kaiser Leto III had the provision that Shireroth would endeavour to "keep" the lakes holy.

Hurmu is weak, has always been. I'll tell you the story of the Lakes.

Hurmu legends hold that it was from these lakes that life first stemmed. The sort of cradle of life. Of course there is no evidence for this notion, but ever since Hurmu was founded, the Lakes have been special. When Erik decided that Hurmu could no longer own land on the MCS map, Hurmu managed to lobby the community and the MCS to at least grant Hurmu the territory around the lakes so that they could remain protected.

As such the very notion of the lakes are sacred, holy, and so on.

However, Brookshire sees nothing wrong with adding more places to holy grounds, as long as we have some sort of idea what holy implies.

[Harvey Steffke]

I do not believe that this is a matter for the Landsraad and the national government, nor that defining "holiness" in the Lawbook is a positive step forward. Rather than having national holy lands, we should leave the matter of what sites are holy up to the various churches of the land. If Cedrism wants to hold certain lands holy, that's their business and I welcome them to it. As I do with Hurmu's lakes to the Hurmu people. Hurmu's lake life origin story, while special and sacred to them, means little to me. I do not believe that the lakes are the origin of life. I would absolutely not question or persecute anyone's beliefs that they are, but neither do I feel very comfortable with some sort of official law being on the books that supports this, any more than you should be willing to accept a conflicting story that places such an origin anywhere else.

Instead, we could set up some sort of national park system, or declare certain areas to be nature preserves with no permanent structures built save a few observation posts, emergency response bases, research areas, or something along that line. If the people of Hurmu want to make sure that the lakes remain clear and unpolluted and that no settlements spring up on their shores, that's fine by me.

[Daniel Farewell]

So we could strike out the "holy" bit in the Lawbook and replace it with "land that is protected and preserved by the imperial government"?

[Harvey Steffke]

Something along that line, although it's not just that easy. The entire island of Amity isn't "protected land" any more than the rest of Shireroth is and actually seems to be see more combat/bombardment from space than most other territories. We can't go around declaring entire islands as no-build zones or Yardistan would lose a large portion of its holdings.

[Daniel Farewell]

I envision it could be like this:

If a territory in protection and preservation is attacked, polluted, destroyed, aimed to be destroyted, etc etc, violated, raped, whatever, it's the duty of the imperial government to take measures in protecting the land. For Hurmu, this would be the lakes. For Amity, the island. So if Ardy gets on a killing spree again, well... he'd be committing a violation of imperial law. For now there's nothing saying that he can't do it. And with SCOWL and QUARREL, wars are encouraged, which the Hurmudan in me does not agree with. :P

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I would like to see "Holy land" be limited to Cedrist Holy Land, as part of the Kaiser's official position as head of Cedrism. It would mean first of all that the land could never be given away (see: Mog), second that the land must be ruled over by a Cedrist - ie we could never make a foreigner with a foreign religion Baron of MASS or something like that, and third that we have to protect the right of all Cedrists to make pilgrimage there.

If we wanted national parks, we could have separate national park legislation, and if we wanted something equivalent to UNESCO World Heritage sites, we could have that too. Both of those would also be good matters for the Small Commonwealth to manage.

[Malliki Tosha]

Since when is the Kaiser head of Cedrism?

Why didn't anyone tell me that?

[Harvey Steffke]

Nobody told you that 1) because it's a really weird vague situation of Cedrism sort-of being a national religion and sort-of not so that some people claim the Kaiser is divine and other people claim that it's just his connection to Raynor's bloodline that matters and some people say that the blood matters but Raynor himself was at least somewhat divine, but more importantly 2) because it's never important ever.

[Malliki Tosha]

*Starts to plot*

[Erik Mortis]

Kaiser is NOT head of the Cedrist Religion. If there was a head it would be the Prophet or the "Head" Priest of the Gods.

[Malliki Tosha]

I thought so too. Stop lying to me.

[Harvey Steffke]

I'm not lying. Erik's got his point of view and other people have others. Kaiser Leto III sees himself as quite divine due to his position, for example. Thus all the confusion.

[Malliki Tosha]

> <

[Erik Mortis]

Yes.. but as the guy who tends to do the whole "prophet" role.. I'm gonna pull rank on this one and say the Kaiser has no special power over the religion. (Yes, I DID just pull that card.. the first time in ages... but someone needs to command authority on the issue. *shrug*)

[Kaiser Leto III]

I'm not lying. Erik's got his point of view and other people have others. Kaiser Leto III sees himself as quite divine due to his position, for example. Thus all the confusion.

I AM DIVINE!
But I transcend the borders of religions: I'm divine in every religion, even if those priests and their believers don't know it.

[Daniel Farewell]

Thank you lord Kaiser for your most insightful contribution to a legal problem.

[Kaiser Leto III]

No thanks are required, I'm a demigod!

About the matter around the holy land: is this discussion necessary? Several Duchies, Baronies and even Counties have their own holy lands. I don't see why the Lakes can't be holy, even if they aren't seen like that by the law (but please remember that we, Shirerithians, ignore the laws most of the time, so it wouldn't make any difference).

Let clear that, even if I play a divine Kaiser, that doesn't mean that I recognise myself as Head of Cedrism. I'm not even sure that I'm Cedrist, the place I come from (Barony of Sermolot, County of Audentior) has Soloralism as semi-official state religion.

Maybe we should replace this part of the Lawbook by a chapter in which is described that nobles get the chance to let register and recognise their holy lands on a national level. Of course, there should be certain terms that have to be met. One of the Ministries would get the responsibility to update the list.

[Erik Mortis]

nah. Leave it be.

[Harvey Steffke]

I am not sure how comfortable I am with the Kaiser acknowledging our flagrant dismissal of the law, as truthful as it may be.

[Erik Mortis]

Then ignore him?

[Ryan]

I'm against forcing anything religious on people - whether it's a fake religion or not.

Take the case with Naudia'Diva. It's not religious to me, but it's important to some people. So instead of calling it "holy", I simply made it a protected territory.

We [the USA] have the historical register, park services, conservation and recreation management, etc. These would be more appropriate designations for these areas. Same for Hurmu. Make the lakes an area under ecological conservation and protection. It's not a religious designation, but it protects them from development and/or exploitation.

[Malliki Tosha]

I withdraw this bill. This discussion is better suited for the Front Gate.

[Daniel Farewell]

Perhaps Ma'am Prætor could move this thread to the Front Gate?

[Allot]

Done.