Citizenship restrictions

[Daniel Farewell]

Commoner -- no restrictions
Lesser Noble -- 3
Noble -- 2
Steward -- 1

I propose the following:

There will be no citizenship or nationality restrictions on any denizen applying for citizenship in Shireroth.

There will be a triple nationality restriction on citizens being lesser nobles. They may, outside of their Shirerithian nationality, hold two nationalities. For higher nobles, one outside the Shirerithian one. The Steward, ready to act as regent at any time, needs to only hold one nationality: the Shirerithian one.

[Malliki Tosha]

I object to this. There is a reason why we have the Tri-Cit rule, to prevent people from joining that don't have the time to contribute.

[Daniel Farewell]

My proposal:

Chapter IX:B: Citizenship Restriction
1.Higher Nobles of Shireroth are allowed only two national allegiances including Shireroth.
2.Lesser Nobles of Shireroth are allowed only three national allegiances including Shireroth.
3.The Steward of Shireroth is not allowed to hold a national allegiance to any other country than Shireroth.
4.If a citizen comes into violation of these requirements, he/she must remedy the situation within one Shirerithian week. (14 days).

I am sure that whether one has 3 or 4 doesn't really matter. What should be encouraged however, is the participation of individuals in Shireroth over countries. Merely being a citizen abroad is not reason enough to say "you're not welcome". People need to try Shireroth out. Once they find friends here, establish themselves as part of the community they will find it easier to part with older nations. They may not need to leave them, just let them fade away... Then we keep restrictions for nobles and the steward.

[Malliki Tosha]

We've never had a problem with this before. I will not see Shireroth turn into just a nation amongst others on people's citizenships list.

[Daniel Farewell]

It's never been a problem because we've basically excluded them from Shireroth the past six years.

And if it becomes a problem with people just being Shirerithians on paper and not doing anything, then we can always amend the law again...

And my proposal is about the commoners -- they hold no real power anyway.

[Malliki Tosha]

I want a Shirerithian citizenship to be something special, something you need to make an active choice to get.

[Daniel Farewell]

Of course we all want to make the Shirerithian citizenship experience special. That's why I placed this amendment bill.

If you want to strive higher than ofrälse, then you need to make some sacrifices. Being a commoner doesn't even give you any rights, but once you're a noble, whether high or low, you have rights, and with rights come obligations and sacrifices.

[Gareth Arthur]

I want a Shirerithian citizenship to be something special, something you need to make an active choice to get.

I want to maintain the three-citizenship rule as I believe that it is in the best interests of promoting active citizens. Some people involved in micronations treat citizenship as a title to include in their signature. They never actually participate in those countries except for their initial citizenship application.

Who wants that in Shireroth? I think that most of Shireroth wants citizens who actually value their citizenship. By forcing people to only claim three countries' citizenship, we are weeding out the people who want to be a citizen of everything and will not contribute.

And there are also security risks with having so many allegiances, but that is not my area of concern as the Minister of Immigration and Naturalization.

[Malliki Tosha]

If you want to strive higher than ofrälse, then you need to make some sacrifices. Being a commoner doesn't even give you any rights

So, why would people join? And what you call "commoner" includes Counts.

[Santelran Rottsaa]

I'm just going to throw this out here. Up until a while ago, I obeyed the tri-cit law, and yet, I haven't really done jack shit around here anyway. Good job weeding me out.

[Daniel Farewell]

Corey. Go to bed.

[Malliki Tosha]

If you have only three citizenships, you can potentially do stuff here. Most people do. Just because you do jack, doesn't make you the rule. I would say that people that contribute are the rule, and they too obey the Tri-Cit rule.

[Harvey Steffke]

I'm not actually opposed to tri-cit, but Ii feel there is an important question here: how exactly do inactive citizens that join Shireroth and do very little hurt us? I mean, realistically here, please don't get all metaphorical? It's not like we pay taxes based on the number of citizens we have. If one of these inactives gains a position such as a count, again, how are we harmed? The Kaiser, Landsraad, their Duke, or their Baron could always fire them and replace them with someone who is not inactive.

I don't see the POINT in "weeding" out inactive citizens. This is the internet - there's infinite virtual space on these forums.

[Daniel Farewell]

Harvey reasons well here.

[Leo Fenrir]

I have come to realize that you make an unfortunate amount of sense when you reason Harvey which is bad for people like myself who simply likes things "because we feel like it".

Your argument, of course, makes perfect sense if we are speaking strictly in the terms of gains and loss. But the tri-cit - I belive - was never meant to be a "solve all" solution to activity. Obviously we can't force citizens to be active. However I belive that the law is meant to encourage activity. Yes it is double edged in the sense that by making someone chose where they wish to invest their time they may chose to forgo Shireroth. But the gain of a committed citizen far outweighs the possible loss (and considering that we are awesome who would chose to leave us?)

Also this is a simulation no? So would any country want an unemployed man (or woman) who sits around drawing on the perks of the citizenship whenever they feel the need, but without paying the taxes? (I have come to see 'time' as the tax here in Shireroth). Even if simply for the sake of maintaining some realism it is a necessary purge.

Finally your argument can be summed up as : No need to process the garbage because we have all of south america to dump it in. Sure it never resurfaces. But its still there bugging us OCD kids.... Forever....

[Ryan]

Harvey does have a point. But also there is the point that a person who has more than 3 citizenships can't possibly have the time to make an effective contribution to all those nations. So it does apply to higher nobles. I am the LAST person that you would expect to support the tri-cit rule, yet I've forced myself to scale back and focus on contributing a greater amount to two places rather than small amounts everywhere. You'll remember that I used to be notorious for having many citizenships - sometimes six or more at a time. Yet in retrospect I've seen that Shireroth has persevered, thanks in part to this rule, whereas those that do not keep a similar law have faded and died. That fact can be attributed to many things, but I think the tri-cit rule plays an important role in it. It concentrates your efforts in a smaller range.

Think of it like painting. If you spread the paint too thin, you don't get good coverage. But if you concentrate it, it gives you a quality finish.

I can see both points of view; from Harvey and Erik. My statement above supports Erik's views. Yet Harvey does have a point in that counties have little say in the actual functioning of the state - they are basically hand-outs for new citizens, intended to be developed and re-developed as the situation demands. So in theory Ric's proposal could very well work, by forcing the limitations to be imposed on those who seek higher positions in the hierarchy. For those who do not wish to aspire to more than a mere count - which for a long time I myself was content with - then this would be perfectly suitable. And, as Harvey stated, if they failed to do a proper job, they could be dismissed without much fuss.

[Leo Fenrir]

Metaphors solve everything.

[Harvey Steffke]

The problem with the "paint too thin" metaphor is that we are not the painter holding the brush; we're the paint. I guess the painter with the brush would be God. Who knows where people will splash themselves and who knows how much they will cover? - that's a rather labored metaphor for how active they will be. Every person has a differing interest in the hobby and a differing amount of time they're willing to spend on it. For example, I have a lot of free time to spend on micronations, but how much have I really "contributed" to Shireroth? Not all that much. I argue and debate a lot, but as far as lasting cultural or historical contribution, next to nothing. Simply limiting a person's citizenships doesn't force them to spend more time on Shireoth because we CAN'T force ANYONE to spend time on Shireroth. We can just do our best to make it interesting. If you build it, they will come - or not.

I would like to state again that I don't disagree with tri-cit. I just like it for what I consider more honest reasons. Shireroth is a large, active, powerful nation. We can afford to tell people "if you want to join us, you have to do certain things our way." And clearly they're mostly willing, as evidenced by our far larger than average population. We're in a strong enough position to make demands that smaller, weaker countries couldn't get away with making. That's a bit elitist, but pah, you're all thinking it too; I'm just okay with admitting it.

[Leo Fenrir]

In any case arguing the point is slightly futile because I have the impression we are all saying the same thing in different words. The original point though, that of categorized requirements, seems an easy one to solve.

Why change that which works? (An archaic and frowned upon saying but relevant none the less.) As Harvey has said we are in the position where we can demand such things from our citizens and unless that beings to act against our favor I don't see how changing this law would be anything but detrimental. Having to revaluate each citizen's citizenships each time they change nobility would be time consuming, confusing, and counter productive. This way everyone knows where they stand.

[Ryan]

Well said.

[Erik Mortis]

Cool... I didn't even have to show up an my opinion on the matter was known!

I am still a full and avid supporter of Tri-Cit.

[Kaiser Leto III]

The Tri-Cit regulation is about loyalty: Loyalty towards the Imperial Republic. If we open the borders to everyone, we create a situation in which foreigners will try to get important jobs and eventually disappear or will abuse it in the advance of other nations. This can happen with the Tri-Cit-rule, yes, but we avoid that the person's loyalty is stretched over too many nations.

[Daniel Farewell]

I'd like to thank you all for a civil and most interesting debate.