Want another Barony/Earldom?

[Erik Mortis]

Seeing as my Duchy is repressing me. Can I come hang with you guys? Screw the legalities, wouldn't it be fun to have a barony on the mainland?

[Daniel Farewell]

Cease and desist. There will be consequences.

[Ryan]

Seeing as Greg is MIA, Yardistan can't take an official stance on this.

Lac Glacei, what's left of it anyways, supports the decision of Dolor to join us.

We would have annexed you anyways, so this just saves us the trouble.

[Malliki Tosha]

Dolor cannot decide unilaterally to switch duchy.

[Erik Mortis]

What? You guys don't want me, you've made that clear. So I'll go take my Fief to a Duchy that can appreciate Rebellion.

[Daniel Farewell]

This is getting over the line now... It's bordering the unpleasant

Can't we just stop this whole thing - you keep everything you have in Brookshire, rights etc, and all you have to do is to stop that childish rebellion

I don't want to fight you, even if it is a fight in words. In the end one of us will get hurt. And that's a no good thing in micronations.

[Erik Mortis]

I'm just reacting to having laws and such passed against me, or attempted to be passed against me. I'm more then willing to stop my rebellion against you. You know what I want.

[Malliki Tosha]

I just disagree with giving money and positions to disloyal people.

[Erik Mortis]

I never said I was disloyal, just in rebellion. A concept the Yardistani can understand.

[Malliki Tosha]

Yardistan as a duchy can rebel, not individual Yardistani subdivisions. Unless I'm mistaken, you said so yourself as Arbiter.

And to me, rebellion equals disloyalty.

[Ryan]

Yardistan as a duchy can rebel, not individual Yardistani subdivisions. Unless I'm mistaken, you said so yourself as Arbiter.

And to me, rebellion equals disloyalty.

Yardistan isn't rebelling. Our chaos is perpetual and self-inflicted.


Honestly, I don't believe there is a law stating Erik can't opt to switch loyalties, and by virtue of that, switch the loyalties of Dolor. It's really a common sense thing, but then, if it's not written then it does provide a loophole. And I'm not taking sides by that statement, I'm just stating a possibility.

Why not just grant Dolor autonomy and be done with it?

[Malliki Tosha]

Ryan, why don't you read the laws? The Earl holds his position courtesy of the Duke and can be removed by him.

[Ryan]

*shrugs*

I still don't see why you just don't grant him some autonomy and be done with the whole argument... Is it really worth fighting over?

[Harvey Steffke]

Re laws: I dunno. The laws about creating and destroying duchies and fiefs are quite clear, but TRANSFERING land from one administrative rule to another is not addressed at all.

There are three ways we could look at this. One, that it's just flat-out impossible; that fiefs are mere subdivisions of indivisible duchies and that, for example, Dolor doesn't exist as real defined territory but as merely a fraction of Brookshire. This position is well-supported by the laws (particularly, the absence of any reference of fief land transfers period) but not by historical precedence. More than one time a barony was transferred between duchies - there was a period when this was quite common. So I don't think this would hold serious water.

The second way of looking at this is that the law is complete and we have to follow it and dems the breaks. Dolor could therefore apply for two separate, defined land transfer laws - destruction (in Brookshire) and creation (in Yardistan, or wherever). Both operations require either the will of the duke or a simple majority vote in the Landsraad. No doubt the Duke of Yardistan (or wherever) would approve, but I doubt his royal brother in Brookshire would be so kind, so the Earl could request a Landsraad vote on the matter, which would be a hard sell to the Landsraad, but that's neither here nor there. All of this would be completely legal, but the major problem with this method is that the land wouldn't go with Dolor - he'd lose his territory in Brookshire and be presumably given new territory named Dolor somewhere within Yardistan's holdings. Probably not what he's looking for. I guess he could also try some sort of resolution to get the land controlled currently by Dolor to be placed under Yardistani jurisdiction, but, well, good luck with that.

The third way of looking at it is saying a bit "screw you" to the law, which I believe is Erik's approach right now. Obviously, the law doesn't really agree to this, but many people think Shireroth's system is malleable and unserious enough to allow things like this to just happen without it being the end of the world. Still, no doubt all of Brookshire would oppose, as would Goldshire probably in their general policy of supporting greater Brookshire, and some other old timers wouldn't like it, so that would be a rough path from the get-go. But it is one that has been known to get results.

Basically my point in typing all of this up is that, at least as far as some people are concerned, the laws are more like guidelines than rules. Sometimes I wonder what the point of passing specific laws is when we break them en mass whenever we want. You could go red in the face arguing about what the Lawbook says, but if enough people find an idea nifty, of a sudden it doesn't matter much, especially when the law is incomplete or vague, as in this case here.

[Malliki Tosha]

Erik can't move Dolor without approval. Pretty obvious. If he tried, he could be fired. Also pretty obvious.

[Harvey Steffke]

The point that you're either missing or intentionally trying to ignore is that he could get approval from people outside of Brookshire, aka The Landsraad, and if they gave him approval there wouldn't be a darn thing that you or anyone in Brookshire could do about it. Of course, I find the situation of him gaining approval from the Landsraad very unlikely, but the point is that there are ways to do it.

[Malliki Tosha]

Are you sure? Me, having never read the laws or rules of Shireroth, need to be educated on them.

[Harvey Steffke]

I'm not sure what you hope to gain from statements like that. It's well-established that the Kaiser and the Landsraad are above any given Duke. If the Duke of Brookshire wanted to, he could fire Erik as Earl and disband Dolor right now. And then the Landsraad could pass a resolution transferring the land to Yardistan and that would be that.

[Malliki Tosha]

Oh for the love of the Gods, can't you spot sarcasm?

Such a move would be legal in every way, but would be highly untraditional. Now, please stop lecturing me on the laws.

[Harvey Steffke]

No, it reeked of sarcasm, but also of wild inconsistency. I'm just wondering why you engaged in this conversation at all when you seem to know you're in the wrong. You made a position, I disproved it, and then you switched sides and got sarcastic... and you say MY debate style is uncomfortable!

As for untraditional, that's questionable. Duchies used to trade baronies like trading cards.

[Malliki Tosha]

Yeah. Disproving me by resorting to a move not used once during my 1½ years in Shireroth is very impressive.

My position, all along, has been that Erik holds his position courtesy of the Duke and can be removed by him. I did not address the other possibilities because I deem them highly unlikely. If I recall correctly, a barony has neither been created nor destroyed, nor a baron been dismissed or appointed, by either the Kaiser or the Landsraad for at least 1½ years. I will, of course, stand corrected if you find such a case.

[Emoran Rottsemo]

Erik, you can come join Yardistan if you give me some furry lovin', preferably as a badger, at least ten times a week. GIMME!!!

Emoran Rottsemo
Furry of Yardistan

[Erik Mortis]

Harvey.. I love you. I love you too Mike.. but for different reasons...

[Ryan]

Why does everyone always go for the furry porn whenever things go awry?!

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Harvey, you're doing that "me" thing again.
Ryan, what's your position on Santelraan as Duke of Yardistan?

[Ryan]

Given the absence of Greg, I was thinking about angling for the job myself.

[Harvey Steffke]

Harvey, you're doing that "me" thing again.

I was actually just trying to have a law debate, but he had nuthin

[Malliki Tosha]

Since when did I become the non-legalist?