CJ quote of the day

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

"Being a homosexual is unnatural and evil."

- CJMiller

[Daniel Farewell]

Could Mr Miller please explain what he means by that?

[CJ Miller]

Being a homosexual is unnatural and evil.

If you're going to be a pedantic jackass, don't.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

It's not pedantic to pull out your worst bullshit and call you on it.

[CJ Miller]

Being a homosexual is unnatural and evil.

Not bullshit.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Mike: Yo Scottster
Scott: Hey Mike.
Mike: Yay for CJ bringing some intrigue back to Shireroth.
Scott: Howso? Haven't been online in like, two hours, which is forever Shireroth time.
Mike: Apparently gays are unnatural and evil.
Scott: Where's this?
Mike: said on #micronations, reposted for amusement on the forum
Scott: What was it in response to on #micronations
Mike: A question about what he thinks about homosexuality and some trolling.
Scott: So...basically....you asked him a question...he gave an honest answer....and now you're trying to make it into a big thing to embarass and alienate him?
Mike: Yeah, pretty much.
Scott: I think I may have mentioned this before, but you're kind of a dick.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

I embrace my dickishness. I don't however defend idiots.

[Hesam Jayatar]

Scott, being a condescending jackass doesn't make you any less a dick either. Before you say it, yes I'm aware that I am in fact a dick as well. But I also don't have the arrogance to anoint myself as the community-wide moral authority.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Being a homosexual is unnatural and evil.

Homosexuality is not "unnatural", it happens in nature all the time. Wikipedia sums up the evidence as "a new review made in 2009 of existing research showed that same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species" and lists well-documented instances in swans, gulls, mallards, penguins, vultures, dolphins, bison, apes, elephants, giraffes, monkeys, lions, cats, sheep, hyenas, lizards, and flies, among others. There's a thirty percent monozygotic twin concordance for homosexuality (in layman's terms, that means twin studies show it's pretty genetic) and there's chromosomal linkage in the Xq28 region of the X chromosome (in layman's terms, there's a gene linked to homosexuality which you can inheirit from your mother). Imaging studies of the brains of gay men show that some areas of the brain linked to sexuality have developed the way they usually would in females, especially the hypothalamus, which is linked to sex. Although homosexuality would normally be selected against by evolution, there are a few reasons it might not be (for example, female relatives of gay men have more children than the average female and no one knows why, suggesting that sexual antagonism could promote gay genes)

As for "evil", I reserve the word "evil" for an action which lowers overall utility and which becomes less common when condemned. There's no evidence that homosexuality directly decreases anyone's utility (in fact, quite the opposite as gay people tend to be more sexually satisfied than heteros) and if it's biological condemning it won't successfully make it less common.

So you're wrong. However, you were being quietly and respectfully wrong, which is the best way to be wrong and nearly as good as being right. The Kaiseress trolled you into becoming loudly and offensively wrong, which is the only sort of being wrong that causes a problem, and which is the Kaiseress' fault and not yours. But becoming less wrong would make you immune to this sort of trolling in the future.

Hesam, everyone on this thread is being a hopeless idiot and I reserve the right to condescend to them whenever I want.

[Hesam Jayatar]

you mean you 'choose' to be condescending. Saying "reserve the right" is just a ten dollar way of saying you're intentionally being a dick. But you're doing it in a respectful way, so its perfectly fine right?

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

I know I'm a dick, but only to people who deserve it and those that defend them.

[Hesam Jayatar]

Seriously, how can you defend an intolerant person by saying their detractors are intolerant? CJMiller is suggesting that people who are gay should some how feel lesser for their lives. How is putting him in his place by calling him what he hates a bad thing?

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I know I'm a dick, but only to people who deserve it and those that defend them.

You know, if being against homosexuality makes you deserve it, well, that's fifty-four percent of Americans, fifty-six percent of Europeans, the overwhelming majority of Middle Easterners, and a large chunk of the developing world. And that's not even counting those like myself who support homosexuality but believe people who are against it have a right to hold their opinion without being harassed, which is probably a large chunk of the people who are left.

So basically what you're saying is "I know I'm a dick, but only to the overwhelming majority of the population of Earth."

[Hesam Jayatar]

Scott, I never thought I'd hear you state that consensus equates to fact. Further, your source information isn't even about supporting homosexuality. It's data on the support for gay marriage which is a related, but not synonymous issue.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

There is a huge difference between the usual "Well, they are weird and what they do is disgusting" view of homosexuality and the "they are evil" view.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

@Hesam: learn to read. The Kaiseress at least understood what I was saying.

@Everyone, especially those who can read: Tolerate Tolerence - "Don't demand that your allies be equally extreme in their negative judgments of everything you dislike!"

Meanwhile, I still see exactly one person who's actually tried to change CJ's mind on this thread instead of insult him.

[Hesam Jayatar]

you're so pathetic. You don't have a response or a decent defence and yet you're still arguing in favour of this guy because of your self-indulgence for Voltaire.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

You know, if being against homosexuality makes you deserve it, well, that's fifty-four percent of Americans,

That's a survey on the support and opposition to gay marriage

fifty-six percent of Europeans,

This is also a survey regarding gay marriage.

the overwhelming majority of Middle Easterners,

This is just a general something about gays in Islam.

[Chrimigules]

Tolerate Tolerence

The chat between us and CJMiller was less about being overtly intolerant towards intolerance. It was about teasing intolerance, with a little bit of trying to get him to explain the logical underpinning of his assertion. When we finally started pressing him and demanding him to explain and prove his assertion that gay = unnatural/evil, he told us to fuck off and ran away.

He stayed for the teasing, but fled when demanded to prove his point.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Chris: Not sure you're interpreting the article the same way I am. If I understand it right, it's saying that Malliki should be more tolerant of me not be willing to hate people who disagree with me as much as he does.

Malliki: So are you saying that these people think homosexuality is totally morally okay and have no objection to it, they just don't like gay marriage? Seems like an odd set of beliefs to hold. I know I come from a pretty liberal part of the States, and if I were to go around hating and yelling at everyone who said what CJ said, I'd have to hate and yell at a very large percentage of my friends, neighbors, and classmates.

[Chrimigules]

Support for the humanity of homosexual people, but insisting that marriage is between a man and a woman is a quite popular position to take in the United States, Scott.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

Don't try to slip away from the fact that you misrepresented figures that in no way relate to what you were saying.

[Hesam Jayatar]

You should feel honoured Malliki, at least he is still addressing you, even if it only involves the semantics of the argument rather than the issue itself.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Yeah, I worked so hard to misrepresent them that I made sure to link back to exactly where I was getting them.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

Bad references can't be defended by saying that you didn't read them properly.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

So what are you trying to prove? That there are very few people who genuinely think homosexuality is evil? Do you really want to go on the record as saying that? Or do you agree that I'm basically right in saying it's a large part of the world population, but you want to score some cheap shots and distract from the real issue by getting enraged that I used statistics that indirectly imply this rather than prove it outright, all the while linking to them so you know exactly what they were?

[Hesam Jayatar]

I think he's proving that no one is going to cater to your argument unless you can actually defend it.

[Chrimigules]

I wonder how many more times the argument will be shifted in another direction...

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

Unlike you Scott, I don't have a problem with acknowledging that other people are right. You are right that a large part (depends on your definition of "large part" though) of the world's population thinks that homosexuality is evil. That does allow you to distract from the real issue, which is that CJ agrees with this completely moronic notion, and that you support him. Your defense seems to be that a large part of the world agrees, therefore it must be okay.

[Hesam Jayatar]

this is hilarious, because by Scott's argument, the majority of people in Shireroth think Scott is wrong, therefore he is wrong.