CJ Miller case comment thread

[Malliki Tosha]

Yeah, I don't want to clutter the Judex with post fact posts.

Say your piece here.

[Harvey Steffke]

May have interesting ramifications. Essentially the Judex has set the prescient that decrees are valid solely by the Kaiser's will to have them be enforced, as opposed to any legal bindings or standards that automatically validate or invalidate a decree. Erik said up and down that the 456 was just a joke, but in a less clear case the Judex might be able to declare a decree invalid because the Kaiser did not properly follow through. Just as an example, if the Kaiser were to declare a new census in effect that was mandatory for all citizens, and then not fill out the census himself, the case could be made that, since the Kaiser did not abide by the mandatory part of the decree then the decree is entirely invalid.

Not sure how comfortable I am with that. He probably just written another decree declaring that 456 was a joke, is not valid, and that CJ doesn't have citizenship.

[Jacobus Loki]

I'm still concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently.

Jacobus Loki

Again, Law has triumphed over Justice.

[Malliki Tosha]

I don't see this case as having much ramifications outside this issue. You say that I've set the precedent that decrees are valid solely by the Kaiser's will and not by any legal bindings or standards. The problem here is that there are no such standards and never have been. There is no written system for what decrees are meant to look like and I can't very well create a system. It all boils down to the will and intent of the Kaiser at the moment, as I stated in my findings. The Kaiser is not technically bound by imperial decrees nor the DecreeBook, so the issue is kind of moot. I can never unilaterally declare a decree legally invalid, I need the concurrence of a unanimous Landsraad and the Praetor. If the Kaiser were to issue such a decree regarding a census, he would not be bound by it himself since the Kaiser is only bound by the Charter. It would, however, be legally binding on all other citizens.

Having to write a repeal decree would go against tradition, since that has never been required.

Jake, I can't create law. I was appointed by the Kaiser to hold judicial powers second to him, to safeguard the Charter and the laws, and to give a voice to the law. I look to the law and leave everything else to others. As you might have noticed, I did not address whether or not CJ should get citizenship, because that was not the issue as it was brought by him, and it is also not my job. The community, Kaiser, Landsraad and MiniImNat have all said that he is not welcome as a citizen. I cannot supercede that. If anything, I would call my findings the opposite of lawyerism. It may be lengthy, it doesn't exactly read "lolwut, wutevr", but that wouldn't be very fair to CJ, would it? I gave my motivation to why I interpreted the laws as I did. If I were to go for the lawyerism prize, I would probably have tried to argue that "Inperial Deecree #456" indeed was a binding document, and that it somehow forced the Kaiser's hand, etc. etc.

As for the final orders, they are too a consequence of decisions taken elsewhere. I think that the fairest thing to do, both to CJ but to the community as well, is to say that okay, this is the way we're going to do this. You can't pester people that don't want you time and time again with applications, appeals, new applications, etc. etc. etc. Somewhere, there has to be a line, and I drew it. Now it's there, for everyone to see. I think that's justice, at least in some way.

[Malliki Tosha]

Looking at what I just wrote, why didn't I argue that the Kaiser isn't bound by imperial decrees? Well, my motivation in the findings holds, as well as the motivation I give here.

[Harvey Steffke]

The Charter is a limit on the Kaiser's powers to control the government and nation but he still must obey the laws. The Kaiser is a citizen. If he says all citizens have to do something then he has to do it too. If he doesn't want to he has to say he doesn't have to in the form of a decree or statement. He can't just ignore the law because he's the Kaiser.

I would have taken the approach that, since there is no formality involving decrees, anything the Kaiser says is, in effect, law. Many Kaisers have used some modification of "I am the Kaiser and my word is law" when signing decrees. Erik wrote #456 as a Kaiser, but he also said it was an April Fool's joke also as the Kaiser. The latter statement holds no less, or more, weight than the first. Even though it wasn't an official decree (as apparently being official doesn't actually matter) it would still be legally binding as a statement coming from the Kaiser.

[Malliki Tosha]

I think this case can be argued in different ways and still come to the same conclusion. I must however point out that you are factually incorrect in your first paragraph. The Kaiser can technically ignore all laws except the Charter. Look at it like this. What levels of laws are there in Shireroth? We have the Charter, the DecreeBook and the LawBook. Can the Kaiser legally violate the Charter?

b. The Kaiser may make any decree regarding the operation, behavior, functions and policy of Shireroth, as well as any actions zie deems fit, as long as they do not violate this Charter.

The Charter says he can't. Can the Kaiser legally violate the LawBook? Again, from the Charter:

d. Neither the Landsraad, nor any body it creates, has authority or jurisdiction over the Kaiser or this Charter.
e. All permanent law set down by the Landsraad shall be recorded in the Lawbook. Treaties, resolutions, and other temporary measures passed by the Landsraad need not be recorded in the Lawbook.

The Landsraad makes law that is recorded in the LawBook. However, the Landsraad has no authority over the Kaiser, hence the LawBook does not apply to him. So, for the final document. Can the Kaiser legally violate the DecreeBook? Again, from the Charter:

b. The Kaiser may make any decree regarding the operation, behavior, functions and policy of Shireroth, as well as any actions zie deems fit, as long as they do not violate this Charter.
e. All Imperial Law set down by the Kaiser shall be recorded in the Decreebook.

The DecreeBook is created by the Charter, but the Charter holds that the Kaiser may not violate the Charter. It doesn't say the Charter and the DecreeBook or Imperial Decrees. Therefore, the Kaiser is only legally bound by the Charter and nothing else. He may choose to submit to the DecreeBook and LawBook, but he is not legally required to.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I've got to say Malliki - despite my distaste for micronational law, at least you do it with style. That ruling wouldn't have seemed out of place coming from a Supreme Court Justice. Do you have legal training, or are you just really good at faking it?

[Malliki Tosha]

Let's not get carried away here. I have no legal training, but I'm interested in law.

But thanks for the compliment.

[Kaiser Mors VI]

Putting aside Harvey and Jake's arguments, That was a VERY well written finding.

As for the concern that the judex could say a Decree wasn't valid for X and Y reason, I point to the fact the Kaiser can just say "Yeah.. that precedent you set... not valid." and move on. If people don't listen to the Kaiser, he has no problems then just the judex.

[Jacobus Loki]

I admit freely that Mike acted in masterfully and in full accordance with the law. CJ was creative in the grounds that he used to bring his case, but the law is what it is.

That is what I believe the problem is. The society has matured to the point where written law overwhelms justice and right. Some of the charm of Shireroth, IMHO, is that the Kaiser is the law, except when the people don't accept his law.

Some of the charm of Shireroth is that one used to be able to cry "BULLS--T", draw a sword, and let chance and chaos swirl to create a new reality.

The further problem is that CJ is unpopular, and so is easy to marginalize, and beat with the gavel. The Kaiser and popular opinion coincide.

Everything is right and legal, but that does not make it any less unjust and wrong.

(Sigh)

[Malliki Tosha]

Justice and right in your opinion. I don't want a racist and bigot here, and I'm sorry that you do.

[Jacobus Loki]

Bigotry comes in many forms.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Jake, I don't think CJ is racist or bigoted, but the specific case here was whether or not he gets auto-citizenship based on the Kaiser making an April Fools' decree. The non-legalistic answer is obviously "No, it was an April Fools' decree". The only way it could have given him citizenship was if we became so obsessed with the letter of the law that we insisted on following it even when it was intended as a joke.

This is a defeat for legalism, not a victory for it.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

I agree with that.

[Jacobus Loki]

(Sigh)

[Hesam Jayatar]

I'd like to say that even as one of CJMiller's greatest detractors, I've noticed he's improved his attitude quite a bit. Where he first came in with blanket and bigoted statements that he could not defend but truly believed, he's at least learned that his opinions are highly unpopular and should only be offered if he can defend them properly and rationally. While he hasn't been able to do the latter, he has refrained from at least petitioning people with his views. Further, he's also no receptive to alternative view points where he was not before. In short, he's learned a degree of restraint.

Since (I think) both Jake and Scott are taking the Voltaire approach to this, it should be noted that I've never said he's not allowed to have these radical views, but that he should understand the consequences of his convictions.

It is my humble suggestion as both a foreigner and occasional instigator that the threat from CJMiller's ideological intolerance has subsided significantly. Although he still behaves poorly when trolled, it would seem unfair that he be withheld citizenship for that reason.

I realize my words have little weight in this issue, but I would suggest that CJMiller not be denied citizenship indefinitely, but only until he is able to express himself within the popular conventions of the community. Since he's made inroads to soon achieve this, I would further suggest that his progress be given as much attention has his shortcomings.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

This issue is under review. Thank you for your comment.

[Harvey Steffke]

Eh, I see the same CJMiller as I did earlier - a clever kid that seems only capable of using his knowledge and energy for evil. He's a learning machine of a troll, but still a troll.

[Jacobus Loki]

As much had been said about myself in the day, and.........

nevermind