I request aid!

[Nickolas]

Lords and Ladies! I call for aid! Ocia slanders my name and the name of my nation with invasion!

They wish to invade Cerulea and conquer it. Novatania is already gearing up for war with us. I request that Shireroth also join this war along side Novatania and Cerulea.

Each ally may name their own victory terms. The war will begin in Jan. It is taking place at my forums.

[Oroigawa Koreyasu]

We are in the process of discussion this already, Lord Nick.

[Prodigy Almighty]

Though I will not go to war without the consent of the Kaiser, the Landsraad, the MiniEx, whoever the hell is in charge of declaring war, I as the MoMA support Cerulea in the battle against Ocia.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I like Cerulea, I really do. But I can't help but notice that the cause of the war is that Ocia thinks that Cerulea was trying to subvert and annex them, and Cerulea is denying this and claiming it's vile slander. And I can't help but point out that I was in the chat last night when Cerulea was, indeed, trying to get people to help them subvert and annex Ocia. If everyone admits this is true and it's just another excuse for a recwar, fine. But if it's the real cause of war and we're supposedly actually fighting to defend Cerulea's reputation or something, we probably shouldn't.

EDIT:

02:38 <@nick112147> Babkha....theyre the Persian themed people...Ive thought about having Arabic territories to the south
02:38 <@dr-spangle> like in WWII?
02:38 <@hesam> youd have to believe in fairy tails for that type of tradition
02:38 <@dr-spangle> where they got out the trenches and played football?
02:38 <@hesam> that didn't actually happen often
02:38 <@nick112147> like the USSR had Kazakhstan
02:38 <@dr-spangle> hesam: shh :P
02:39 <@dr-spangle> I know it wouldn't happen often
02:39 <@dr-spangle> the fact that no mans land often has lots of barbed wire and land mines would have slowed developments
02:39 <@nick112147> getting first down would be hard going through a mine field
02:40 <@dr-spangle> we're talking about "soccer" btw
02:40 <@hesam> nick, just so you're aware, you wouldn't want to colonize Babkha even if you could :P
02:40 -!- Pete [~chatzilla@PSI-FD169CF2.cable.ubr16.uddi.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #micronations
02:40 <@nick112147> NOOO..not colonize, just similar themed territories
02:40 < Pete> Good Morning
02:41 <@nick112147> e.g. Ragheaistan
02:41 <@nick112147> head*
02:41 <@dr-spangle> wait wut?
02:41 <@nick112147> nothing...
02:41 <@dr-spangle> Pete knows his way here
02:41 -!- mode/#micronations [+o Pete] by dr-spangle
02:41 <@nick112147> you met your god spangle :P
02:41 -!- Irssi: #micronations: Total of 10 nicks [10 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 0 normal]
02:41 <@hesam> similar themed territories?
02:41 <@Pete> I heard there was a party happening
02:41 <@nick112147> Arabic and Persian themed territories
02:42 <@ari> Yes, there was
02:42 * ari leaves
02:42 <@hesam> Babkha has an arab territory, Kumarastan
02:42 <@nick112147> ari IS the party
02:42 <@Pete> hold on nick, you want to annex Bahbka?
02:42 <@hesam> but its inactive right now
02:42 <@nick112147> you missed 90% of the convo pete
02:42 <@Pete> I know
02:43 <@nick112147> i said i want similar themed territories of my own
02:43 <@hesam> ah ok
02:43 <@nick112147> im not that ambitious
02:43 <@Pete> you could always add bahbka as one
02:43 <@dr-spangle> ScottA, you awake still? :P
02:43 <@nick112147> i would rather just annex Alexandria
02:44 <@hesam> Alexandria is almost dead right now
02:44 <@nick112147> yes i know
02:44 <@nick112147> one of my citizens may become emperor
02:44 <@hesam> I think Enrique is supposed to be heir isn't he?
02:44 <@dr-spangle> they're at 4.8PPD
02:44 <@dr-spangle> not terrible
02:45 <@nick112147> if its dead its dead, no heir
02:45 <@nick112147> so he asked the current emporer if he could continue it
02:45 <@Pete> Theres a line of succession
02:45 <@Pete> Who is it out of interest?
02:45 <@nick112147> yes but if the nation is dead it is a moot point
02:46 <@hesam> its extremely bad form to claim someone elses hard work
02:46 <@nick112147> He is patriotic about Alexandria, so his own im sure, to continue it
02:46 <@nick112147> hesam: thats why he is asking not taking
02:46 <@Pete> Firstly I dont think Ed plans on Abdicating
02:47 <@Pete> Secondly Gus would want it
02:47 <@hesam> he'll take alexandria with him if he ever leaves
02:47 <@nick112147> well according to Strauss, it is a dead nation
02:47 <@nick112147> neither are maintaining it to any degree
02:47 <@Pete> It just has a slump just now
02:47 <@Pete> All great nations have them
02:47 <@nick112147> all i know is what he told me
02:47 <@Pete> Shireoth
02:47 <@Pete> the GC
02:48 <@Pete> although, the GC did die after its....
02:48 <@nick112147> if you want to know more, go talk to William Strauss
02:48 <@hesam> Shireroth got lucky with a second wind
02:48 <@hesam> but it usually doesn't happen
02:48 <@Pete> Bahbka got one post GC
02:48 <@dr-spangle> Babkha had a slump?
02:48 <@hesam> Babkha IS IN a slump
02:48 <@hesam> but really it has been for years
02:48 <@dr-spangle> yeah
02:48 <@Pete> I know]
02:49 <@hesam> we only got our posts up during the summer of 2007 because we left the GC
02:49 <@hesam> it was a temporary reprieve
02:49 <@dr-spangle> 5.4 isn't much of a slump
02:49 <@dr-spangle> http://mnforumlist.com/activity.php?ID=10
02:49 <@Pete> End of the day if Strauss got it they'd be alot of Pissed Alexandrians
02:49 <@dr-spangle> although all time, it doesn't look great
02:50 <@hesam> 5 posts a day isn't activity
02:50 <@nick112147> although i have thought about annexing Ocia slowly
02:50 <@hesam> its life support
02:50 <@dr-spangle> lol
02:50 <@dr-spangle> our sector saw it as peak
02:51 <@hesam> its a bizarre community
02:51 <@hesam> it'll be strange if it ever dies. I don't know if it will, but
02:51 <@dr-spangle> i doubt it will die
02:51 <@dr-spangle> but it will change
02:51 <@nick112147> hesam: doesnt babkha dislike Ocia?
02:51 <@Pete> I dont know if its posisble for it to die
02:52 <@hesam> it lasted approximately a decade, no one has ever heard of it outside of its participants, and no one will remember it out side of those who were in it
02:52 <@hesam> Babkha is indifferent to Ocia
02:52 <@Pete> Same as shireoth really
02:52 <@nick112147> so you wouldnt want to split it down the middle?
02:52 <@hesam> nope
02:52 <@nick112147> bleh
02:52 <@nick112147> well
02:52 <@hesam> Babkha has no interests in expansion beyond Eura
02:52 <@dr-spangle> Danny Wallace changed Micronations a lot
02:52 <@nick112147> Toketi might help me take over UE or Holzer
02:53 <@nick112147> for a price...(god knows)
02:53 <@dr-spangle> the hell it will
02:53 <@Pete> no offence Nick, but you have a while to wait before you claim anything
02:53 <@nick112147> im not too worried about it peet
02:53 <@nick112147> pete*
02:53 <@ScottA> I will support any claimant of UE or Holzer who promises to get rid of all those stupid little provinces.
02:53 <@Pete> Haha
02:53 <@dr-spangle> ScottA: there's a move to remove UE and Holzer
02:54 <@nick112147> Well Cath said foghorn might go for jointly conquering
02:54 <@dr-spangle> or at least deexpand if they reply
02:54 <@ScottA> And Pete, I recommend eventualy clemency for Nick112147. Maybe as a Christmas move, to show your Christlikeness or something.
02:54 <@nick112147> Scott ive been banned from alot of places
02:54 <@nick112147> it makes NO difference to me
02:54 <@dr-spangle> conquering dead nations is frowned upon
02:54 <@nick112147> im not too worried about what others think spangle lol
02:54 <@dr-spangle> lol
02:54 <@Pete> Its not chiristmas yet
02:54 <@nick112147> and appearently neither is Toketi
02:54 <@ScottA> Nick - you should be
02:54 <@dr-spangle> it's frowned upon by the council
02:54 <@ScottA> Especially if you want more land

Nick says he was joking:

04:10 < ScottA> Hey nick1121248.
04:10 < ScottA> I got a question for you.
04:10 <@nick112148> hi scott
04:10 <@nick112148> shoot
04:10 < ScottA> This whole war against Ocia. Isn't it because they're claiming you were trying to annex them? And aren't you denying it? And aren't they absolutely right?
04:11 <@nick112148> theyre wrong
04:11 <@Cathbhadh> no, Ocia was wrong
04:11 <@nick112148> I showed Andreas everything
04:11 < ScottA> But...but...I was in the chat yesterday when you asked us to help you annex Ocia!
04:11 <@nick112148> he knows their wrong too
04:11 <@nick112148> that was a joke
04:11 <@nick112148> i showed that to andreas
04:11 <@nick112148> Cath seen it
04:12 <@nick112148> Absolutely everyone knows Ocia is being a shitweed

I don't know. If Nick said "I am going to try to annex Ocia" and Ocia interpreted that to mean that he was going to try to annex Ocia, that hardly seems like a justification for invasion of Ocia. Again, if this is all meant to be a fun recwar, whatever, but if not we should make more of an effort to get to the bottom of this.

[Nickolas]

If you think about killing someone are you automatically guilty of murder? If you think about jumping off a bridge, does that mean you have already committed suicide? Essentially, just because one tuesday morning I was like: "Wouldnt it be funny to annex Ocia slowly", then throw it out as a random though, for a good laugh, then jestingly ask Babkha doesnt mean I am hell bent on annexing Ocia. Being a random thought means it is of no importance. Such a thing wouldn't even make it to my offices.

Thus, if Ocia wishes to be THAT paranoid then fine. Let them be. Just thinking about it, does not mean I have absolute resolve to swipe up territory.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

It doesn't automatically mean you're guilty of anything. It also doesn't automatically mean you're innocent. Ocia acted overly hastily in declaring war on you, but there's a difference between being overhasty and wrong. I'm certainly not going to automatically support Ocia, but I'd need more convincing before I automatically support you either. Especially since the discussion was in the context of the UE/Holzer annexation attempt, which certainly did look like a real, well-formed plan.

If you want to fight over the serious issue of whether you were really threatening Ocia, no one here has enough information to make a decision either way (I reserve the right to change my opinion after Andreas explains his reasoning to me). If you want to fight because you like fun recwars, that's fine and I'll support you, but you should probably do a better job of it for exactly the reasons Monty and a few other people are mentioning in the Ocia thread. Stand back, call off the hounds, and set something up at a mutually convenient time going through the proper legal channels.

[Nickolas]

Do you know how many wars Shireroth would have been involved in if everyone suddenly said "ZOMGJEEBUS SHIREROTH IS GONNA ANNEX US" just because of some silly, out of place comment made by a Kaiser or w/e? Yes, it is a rather ODD comment, but by no means grounds for WAR.

[Oroigawa Koreyasu]

Uh...don't talk about Toketi...you're listening to Cathbhadh, who doesn't have a say in anything there...

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Do you know how many wars Shireroth would have been involved in if everyone suddenly said "ZOMGJEEBUS SHIREROTH IS GONNA ANNEX US" just because of some silly, out of place comment made by a Kaiser or w/e? Yes, it is a rather ODD comment, but by no means grounds for WAR.

Anything is grounds for recwar. Heck, some of the best recwars ever were started over the question of whether to grant civil rights to talking dogs.

But to answer your question, at least eleven recwars would have been started if someone had started a war every time they heard a comment that Shireroth was going to annex a country. I know this because I can think of at least eleven countries that Shireroth actually annexed. This is not exactly a crushing argument in your favor.

2003 I heard an offhand comment from someone about a plot from the United Secular States to take over Shireroth. I and some other people from SHINE investigated further, and found an entire secret forum on their site dedicated to plots that included, among other things, hacking. We spread some disinformation about how Shireroth was unhackable and full of scary people who would as soon sue you as look at you, and the United Secular States backed off all without ever officially acknowledging they had any plans of the sort.

All I'm saying is Ocia's justified in wanting an explanation. If you give them one and say "Haha, all a mistake, no need to fight", that's fine. If you want a fun recwar, that's fine too. But if you're actually fighting to defend your honor, I can't properly join in unless I know that you actually were being honorable.

[Nickolas]

I sent some crucial info in a PM to you.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Look, Nick. I understand you want to have a war. I'd like one too. But this isn't the way to get one.

Ocia clearly doesn't know how to do recwars our way with Anunia and stuff, and they're going to have to learn. You're going to have to set it up formally and figure out a time that's convenient to everyone. This "Ohmigod I hate them let's destroy them!" attitude is not convenient to that. More importantly, it's not convenient to a fun recwar where people are trying to do things well rather than win at all costs by using implausible superweapons and arguing about rules until the cows come home. Right now you're both pretty upset at each other. Recwars DON'T WORK when the people involved are really upset. So I suggest that first, you talk this issue out diplomatically with the Ocians and come to some mutual understanding. Then, if you still want a recwar just because recwars are fun and there hasn't been a good one in a while, THEN you can lay some foundations, start one up, and use this as the in-game justification. But having an out-of-game justification for an in-game event is asking for trouble.

[Chrimigules]

Nick, you weren't just thinking about it. You were plotting it with Cathvhadh in #micronations. You tried to convince me to get Antica to support you! That isn't just considering things. It's planning. If we use your example of equating war/annexation with murder, this isn't just considering murder, it's not even just plotting it, it's conspiracy.

[Andreas the Wise]

Chim, are you referring to the above conversation or another one?

[Chrimigules]

A different one I had with Nick and Cath last night. I'm reading back over the logs at the moment.

[Andreas the Wise]

Well, if it was last night (ie within the last 30 hours) then it was a conversation AFTER Ocia had declared war (I've been following all this, Ocia declared war around midday yesterday my time. For reference, it's 5:30pm here.

[Chrimigules]

It would be a lot easier if everyone went on one time zone. It's why they invented Zulu.

[Andreas the Wise]

*wipes brow* Phew. I was worried there for a moment. Well, no harm done.

[Chrimigules]

A different one I had with Nick and Cath last night. I'm reading back over the logs at the moment.

Disregard that, I suck cocks.