Time to decide the fate or Shireroth...

[Peter Little]

stay Pete LittlePrime Minister of South MondesiaMinister of Culture of TymariaSpeaker of Parliament CGS

[Kaiser Mors I]

I now put before you a "vote".Should we stay in Tymaria as a state. OR.Should we go through the process and become an independant nation once again.Most know my standing, I wish to see the glory of shireroth again, and this cannot be while in this shattering nation.Now, I put before you the choice.Leave?Or Stay?As Kaiser I don't need to even ask, I could simply pull us out like that... but I wish to know the feelings of my people... Kaiser Mortis Mercator IHonor through Death, And Death Before Dishonor!

[Ari Rahikkala]

Stay. "Please egress. Be so kind as to promptlywithdraw. Please exit-depart-get-out- please-please-please-please oh prettyplea... THANK you." -- David Brin:"Gorilla, My Dreams"

[For Her Light]

We should stay for the time being. It's not the right moment. So I'm moving on... I'll never forget...As you lay there and watched me...Accepting the end...I knew you were scared...You were strong, I was trying...I gave you my hand...I said "It's okay, let it go, time to leave you..."And I'll carry on...The best that I can without you here beside me......Let him come take you home... Edited by: For Her Light at: 5/4/02 8:04:39 am

[Lord Raglan]

I concur with the others...This should only be done, if it is done at all, once the air has cleared a bit.Stay Nick RaglanRS Duke of Lothlaria (temp)MACH Duke of ItaliaSpecial Assistant to the Prime ExecutiveChief of Defense Staff, TDFGeneral, TOG

[Scott Alexander]

Stay THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of theircountry; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman -Thomas Paine, "The Crisis"

[Kaiser Mors I]

Blast.... damn new comers....hehe Kaiser Mortis Mercator IHonor through Death, And Death Before Dishonor!

[Kaiser Mors I]

Why do you want to stay?Is it cause of loyalty to Tymaria?You can still be a Tymarian Cit if we leave. We would do it legally.Is it cause you think Tymaria will fall without us?Then why are we even here if we are keeping it together? If we are that much of it that we could cause it to fall then why should we be weighted down by it's buarcracy?We have so much potential now, to be tied down by this goliath of a nation is......dumb... Kaiser Mortis Mercator IHonor through Death, And Death Before Dishonor!

[For Her Light]

It's mostly because I don't want a certain group of people to win... So I'm moving on... I'll never forget...As you lay there and watched me...Accepting the end...I knew you were scared...You were strong, I was trying...I gave you my hand...I said "It's okay, let it go, time to leave you..."And I'll carry on...The best that I can without you here beside me......Let him come take you home...

[youngmecca]

I think we should leave and become a soverign nation. We may never be truly free of powerful under the belt of another land.

[Peter Little]

Shireroth is very powerful under Tymaria, It is a corner stone of the nation. Pete LittleNational Affairs Minister of South MondesiaMinister of Culture of TymariaSpeaker of Parliament CGS

[Jason Steffke]

I'm not a citizen, but I'm an honorary B0O0/\/\ist, so...Little said that Shireroth is a "corner stone of the nation." I would go farther: Shireroth is THE pillar holding the nation up. Take out Shireroth, and there isn't enough left to support the rest of the nation.But the death of Tymaria shouldn't matter to Shireroth. Rather, what is important is what Tymaria is doing to Shireroth right now. Sure, Shireroth can get away with bending the rules a little, but go too far, and what's left of the government "cracks down." (I use the term lightly: it's not like Tymaria actually has the means to enforce their laws.)The Kaiser is right: Shireroth is could be so much MORE. The turnout to this thread proves it! You have the potential to become a major nation once more, to set the example on how nations should be run. Why stay as a part of a failing nation when you could be a great nation yourself, and have proven so in the past?End this dark age! Show the world what Shireroth is and can be! Jason SteffkeJas'Kur Ste'Eth

[Scott Alexander]

The turnout to this thread proves the exact opposite of what Jason (now filling in for the person who deleted a month's worth of Shireroth history) says. It proves that under Tymaria, Shireroth has prospered like never before. We're doing better now than we were under the Seventh Republic! Without Tymaria, would we have Raglan, Little, or Whittaberg? Would we have had our opportunity to annex Lesser Argaal, Jaris, or (in a few days) Emmalime? We've tried Shireroth thirteen different times without Tymaria, and once with Tymaria. And that one time with Tymaria has come out better than all the other thirteen combined.If that's not a reason to stick with Tymaria, I don't know what is.

[Kaiser Mors I]

I'm not meaning to be aragant.. but it was not Tymaria that made us get this care.. It was the work of me and Nick and later James. We have joe and little and reglan because I convinced those individuals and their lands to join Shireroth to help make it greater.. maybe I wouldn't have met them without Tymaria.. I'll grant that. But Tymaria as a nation hasn't help us much, it's mostly tried to keep us under it. All these changes and advances came through the hard work of SHIREOTH and Shirerithians.. not from Tymaria. I do't think so much work has been put into shireroth as has in the last few months... Tymaria has done little to advance our cause.. maybe as an antagonist it has... but do we really want that?Stejpan(sp, I'm tired)...I respect you.. I like you, But if you are only here to spite Jas.. then I'm disappointed. When you join Shireroth, you join to help it grow. I don't ask for complete loyalty, nor do I ask you to forsake your other nations... Duel-Cit Ban was lifted months ago... (which has attributed to our growth)... What I do ask of those that are Shirerothian is for them to be here to help not hinder. This isn't a place like Tymaria. Nor would I let it be. If you are unhappy, tell me... If you are simply here to make trouble, leave.. Or I will simply expell you. That's the thing with Shireroth, We are a monarchy. Strength through Honor, Duty, and Unity. Whether we are 5 people or 500 people strong. Shireroth is this way.Truth is... I'm tired... And I want something that can FINALLY live without me for a month or two.. and under Tymaria.. I'm not seeing it. Even now, with new and active cits.. and personal friends like James around to keep it going... it need structure... It needs presence. Under Tymaria. We can't mint currancy. We can't wage war legally. We can't sign treaties. We can't just go and have fun without getting yelled at by the fed.And think about it. Do we even listen to the Fed anymore? No... Since my reign began we haven't. And why do we stay in this nation if we don't even listen to it? Loyalty? I don't ask you to cast aside loyalty to Tymaria. If we leave, I plan to go through legal channels... And then sign a treaty of friendship with them. I want no hard feelings.. But we have outgrown Tymaria, especially with it's instability. All I can forsee is it dragging us down. Maybe I'm calling for the "sinking ship" effect. I don't know. But Tymaria isn't what we are. When we joined we were joining something different, we were something different.... A piece of land... nothing more.. no government aside from me.... no military.. nothing.... we lost much land... Now through hard work we are something.. and can be much much more... But we are Tymarian.... And what can we do that we havan't already done while in Tymaria.. nothing.... What can we do if we are free.... alot more... and that which we might be able to still do as Tymarian.. we can proly if not definitly do better as a free land.I'm not calling Tymaria oppressive or anything... just antiquated. Bogged down by a system that doesn't work. In the "Good Ol' Days" we would have revolted and broken free by now. But we are larger and I can't just do things like that anymore... (well I could... but for some reason.. I'm not)We may look like we have passed the 7th Republic days... but we haven't... We MUST be free to do that. The 7th Republic was our greatest times of the past..... We where free though... We are NOT free now... We lack the ability to make our own choices. If Tymaria goes to war, we are forced to join.. even if we don't want to.. and if we don't go and join. We will be "punished".. What they could accually do? I don't know.. but I know it wouldn't make us happy. All I forsee with Tymaria and Shireroth is a conflict if we stay. If we leave... friendship.... Their enimies may not be our enimies.. but we are not their enemy... nor them ours...I see the irony of this comeing from a Kaiser who took his name from the B0O0/\/\ist god of Death, But. I believe I've made my views fully known. And continue to urge you to see this from the point of view that is the interests of Shireroth. Kaiser Mortis Mercator IHonor through Death, And Death Before Dishonor!

[Baroness Sabriel]

I honestly don't know what to say to all of this... I am admittedly confused... I have many people telling me what to believe, trying to sway me in either direction.For the time being, I must say that I agree with pulling out of Tymaria and becoming independent. However, if this cannot be done in a civil manner *this does not mean legally* (i.e. if we cannot keep our relationship with Tymaria neutral or better) it may not be the best idea at the present time.I would like to fight some wars and put my little used Air Force to work, and it seems as if becoming an independent nation would aid in that field...However, for the time being, I must say that I am remaining neutral on this subject. I will say that my inclination at the moment is toward become a free nation, but I am, as of yet, undecided. Don't give up until YOU know the war is lost.I'm female, I'm an anomaly, what can I say?

[Ari Rahikkala]

I mostly want us to stay because...1) If everyone does go back to sleep, and Tymaria and Freenesia do resolve their differences, we'll have the help of Tymaria in foreign relations, etc. I believe Tymaria is generally more famous than Shireroth, though not necessarily as popular...2) If Tymaria does fall, we will be the ones who get to keep the spoils :). "Please egress. Be so kind as to promptlywithdraw. Please exit-depart-get-out- please-please-please-please oh prettyplea... THANK you." -- David Brin:"Gorilla, My Dreams"

[Kaiser Mors I]

1. Does that really help us?2. Doesn't mean couldn't still take the spoils... hehehe Kaiser Mortis Mercator IHonor through Death, And Death Before Dishonor!

[Fax Malysus]

What if, instead of just leaving or staying, there were a third option?I'd like to present that third option right now:What if we were to REFORM Tymaria?Tymaria has a good structure, but it has too negative a past, too many termites in the woodwork, in order to maintain itself. Frankly, though it happened before my prescence, TYSOG was the straw that broke the camel's back.Now, if Shireroth (or members therein) were to gain control of a small portion of Tymaria's government, we could begin rebuilding Tymaria, replacing all that termite-ridden wood with fresh redwood (which is impervious to termites or other parasites, but that's besides the point).It doesn't even need to be Shireroth as a whole gaining control. If we were to get one member (Erik, Scott, Ari, or me, among others) into an office with high powers, we could begin the Reformation.We could rewrite the Constitution, for starters.We could reform the Houses and ensure that BOTH are actually used.We could reform the military and destroy the memory of TYSOG forever.We could begin again with diplomacy and citizenship.We could do many great things, but it has to start somewhere.My vote: CHANGE TYMARIA.

[Gryphon Avocatio]

Get the hell out of dodge.

[Fax Malysus]

what?

[Kaiser Ikol I]

He wants to leave... "Always keep a firm grasp on reality, so you can strangle it at any time"Kaiser Ikol I

[Jason Steffke]

Fax, your reforming idea has a fatal flaw: no matter how to try to reshape Tymaria, states will still be less then the federal government, and you still won't be able to do everything you want without them getting in the way. Jason SteffkeJas'Kur Ste'Eth

[Ari Rahikkala]

Then maybe we should rewrite the Tymarian constitution to recognise the Shirerothian Kaiser as its highest leader ;) ? Why play a god... ... when you can be one?

[Jason Steffke]

Which would effectivly kill Tymaria as we know it! Hey, if you can pull it off, go for it! Jason SteffkeJas'Kur Ste'Eth

[Lord Raglan]

Quote: Now, if Shireroth (or members therein) were to gain control of a small portion of Tymaria's government, we could begin rebuilding Tymaria, replacing all that termite-ridden wood with fresh redwood (which is impervious to termites or other parasites, but that's besides the point).It doesn't even need to be Shireroth as a whole gaining control. If we were to get one member (Erik, Scott, Ari, or me, among others) into an office with high powers, we could begin the Reformation.This is the better plan than leaving. I think with those that have hung on, compromise can be made. As to getting a Shirithian into power, that shouldn't be that difficult once the next elections occur.Quote: We could rewrite the Constitution, for starters.First off, would this be a set of amendments or a totally new constitution? At this point, I wouldn't mind either. Having a new constitution would free everyone who wants to leave. At one time, I disliked the idea, but now... we need to remove the plagued branches of Tymaria.Quote: We could reform the Houses and ensure that BOTH are actually used.What would be the reforms to these Houses. I am assuming some major changes to the HoN. I think that as long as we give it limited powers that should be wield only by experienced micronationalists. The HoP should take of everything else.Quote: We could reform the military and destroy the memory of TYSOG forever.In my opinion, the disaster of the TYSOG not only destroyed the memory of the TYSOG but the rest of the TDF as well. As the current General of the TDF, I have inherited a mess. Now, tell me, what are your suggestions...Quote: We could begin again with diplomacy and citizenship.We could do many great things, but it has to start somewhere.My vote: CHANGE TYMARIA.I agree that we have to do something for Tymaria. Nick RaglanRS Duke of Lothlaria (temp)MACH Duke of ItaliaSpecial Assistant to the Prime ExecutiveChief of Defense Staff, TDFGeneral, TOG

[Fax Malysus]

thank you, thank you, and thank you some more.i'll start a convention in delvenus for discussing this subject...passworded.It has to do with the current Kaiser. Of course, Legitimacy is necessary...i'll see what i can do.and if this confused you, ask erik. -Fax MalysusNEWS Editor-In-ChiefPolitioSolomirathius of DelvenusModerator of the Delvenus Conventionpub37.ezboard.com/brepublicofdelvenus

[For Her Light]

I'm not here to spite anyone. I wasn't even referring to Jas when I wrote that. There simply is a group of people who I feel have played everyone, are only interested in satisfying their own egos and don't deserve to have the satisfaction of seeing their goals achieved (I can specify these people, but not here and I can tell you now Jas is neither of them). You asked for me opinion and I gave it. I gave you my reasoning and it has pragmatic and political implications. Would Shireroth benefit from being associated with the various states which decided to break way all at once who are generally viewed in a less then positive light? It just wasn't a good time.If I get expelled from the nation then, so be it. I'm too busy now having nervous breakdowns in the middle of school and being sent down to the psychologist on a daily basis anyway... So I'm moving on... I'll never forget...As you lay there and watched me...Accepting the end...I knew you were scared...You were strong, I was trying...I gave you my hand...I said "It's okay, let it go, time to leave you..."And I'll carry on...The best that I can without you here beside me......Let him come take you home... Edited by: For Her Light at: 5/7/02 2:54:03 pm

[Kaiser Ikol I]

You will never be expelled. I just thought you were spiting Jas... nevermind I guess..hehe sorry "Always keep a firm grasp on reality, so you can strangle it at any time"Kaiser Ikol I

[For Her Light]

its ok. It doesn't matter a whole lot to me really. Some crazy stuff is going on right now that I have to take care of before I can really think of doing anything here for a while. So I'm moving on... I'll never forget...As you lay there and watched me...Accepting the end...I knew you were scared...You were strong, I was trying...I gave you my hand...I said "It's okay, let it go, time to leave you..."And I'll carry on...The best that I can without you here beside me......Let him come take you home...

[Kaiser Ikol I]

Understood, I'll see you when you return.. "Always keep a firm grasp on reality, so you can strangle it at any time"Kaiser Ikol I