ECONOMIC NOTICE TO SHIREROTH:

[Austi Scot]

The economy is now about 3 weeks into launch. Several people have joined during this time frame. While there are several bumps which we are going over right now the economy, for the most part, has had a good start.During this time frame there was a bonus paid to those who immediately got involved. Since then we have seen a round of expenses (including taxes) and a payday.Many people have paid their expenses – those who didn’t found they missed out on the payday. You must be active in the economy in order to earn money. Not paying your taxes does not stop a payday at this time. This is because I want to give the issue time to be discussed – as several people are protesting that aspect of the economy and making their own proposals. It is now time for those businesses and ministries, which did receive funds in the most recent payday round, to actually pay wages to their employees.There is another payday round coming up in a few days. If you were eligible for the most recent payday you are still eligible for the upcoming payday. If you haven’t yet paid your bills since the most recent round of expenses there is a few days left to get that done so that you will be eligible for the upcoming payday. Also, if you own a business and haven’t yet paid your bills please be sure to do so as your employees won’t be eligible for the payday if you don’t – even if they pay their personal bills.If you are one of those few people who have an account but don’t have a job – I encourage you to seek employment.If you own a business please contact the manager of the stock market in the forum called The Great Market Place and get your company set up. This must be done in order to sell stock – which might help you raise money. Thank you for your economic activity. I hope the next three weeks is even more active than the pass three weeks for Shireroth. Minister of TradeAusti Scot

[Phoenix the Risen]

Thank you for this notice, Minister.However, I am a bit confused about the running of the economy still. Is it possible you could post a timeline of sorts such that I can look ahead to when my next payday will be, or the next time expenses and taxes will be charged? I have little access to the computer as is, and I would like to know when I need to check in to pay bills.Thank you. Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[Austi Scot]

I am attempting to get people to spend on their own – at random times, rather than on a timescale. Spend whenever you have the time and for whatever reasons you may have. If people will develop their goods and services to be sold, there will be reasons to spend. It will be much better when this type of spending takes hold. In the meantime just spend for no reason at all whenever you’re here.If a person doesn’t spend I will post a directive in their account thread to spend. If that happens such spending must be done before the person is again eligible to have Erb added to the economy as a result of their productivity.This is part of the reason there is no set payday – so that people will spend so they can be eligible to receive a payday. If you don’t know when the next payday is coming you might want to always be ready for it. If your spending reaches a level of at least 20% of your income (not savings) – your employer will get money on payday – unless the employer isn’t spending.If you own a business you might want to give people a reason to spend their Erb at your company.So just spend!Austi

[Philip Locke]

Spending directives?Talk about twisted hyper-mercantilism.

[Gman Russell]

So, basicly; we need to get greedy.

[Austi Scot]

Quote:Spending directives?Talk about twisted hyper-mercantilism. If this comment was meant to offend me – it didn’t. As a matter of fact it tells me that at least Locke understands what kind of economy I’m attempting to set up. Setting up an economic simulation for mirconations has long been a desire of many people in micronationalism, including myself. Many have tried, but few if any have had success. I have attempted to look at why we haven’t been able to establish an economy when most people say they want one. While I have concluded there are several reasons for these failures, I want to address only two aspects in this post – those being the types of economic systems that have been attempted and how I have chosen to handle the management of the economy in order to help Shireroth be successful this time. First let me point out what economics mean. Economics is a science, not a pure, settled in stone, one-way only method or discipline of doing things. Because economics affects society it is considered a social science that deals with goods and services.Economics deals with the management of three aspects of goods services. These are the production, the distribution, and the consumption of goods and services. So, as your Minister of Trade, you can expect me to be concerned with and to deal with these three things – ProductionDistributionConsumption All the various kinds of economies must deal with these three aspects. There are several types of economics, -BarterFeudalismMercantilismCapitalismCommunismFascism… a mixed economy – (some aspects of two or more types mixed together) For those with a driving need to know I have placed a definition of each type at the end of this post.I suppose all of these have been attempted in micronationlism – maybe with the exception of mercantilism. Perhaps mercantilism has been tried before but I haven’t seen it. All except once, whenever I attempted to establish a micronational economy, I have attempted capitalism. Since capitalism operates best when left in the hands of private individuals I would encourage such things and, as Minister of Economics, practically keep my hands off. I would expect citizens of the micronation to not only come up with all the ideas, but to make all the decisions and find ways to implement them; this always failed .I have seen a barter system used in micronationalism and fail. It is difficult enough to work out how many other goods and services your production is worth in real life let alone in a simulation.Many of you have seen simulated economies based on communism fail. The communist simulations have usually been someone posting how much production of something is being done and how this makes for such a glorious revolution because everyone’s need for food and housing is being fulfilled in the micronation.Simulated fascism fails every time too. This usually takes the form of telling people how many posts they must make within a weeks time, or two weeks time, or every month. Sometimes it takes the form of telling people this or that forum will be archived and deleted because it doesn’t have enough activity. Basically telling people it belongs to them but they must use it some fashion or at some rate.I attempted feudalism at least once before Shireroth. That economic attempt was pure feudalism, which made it difficult to recruit. Most people want the noble titles with all the rights and thus are unwilling to take the position of commoner. They don't want to be told what to do by others, not to be able to claim they own or control their corner of the simulated map. Most people don’t want to play the role of vassal. Shireroth is the only micronation I have seen with this structure that has attracted people. Even with that said most people here aspire to be a noble of some sort. (myself included)So now comes my desire to set up a working economy – so I choose mercantilism, and I approach it from the opposite direction of how mercantilism developed in the real world. All the attempts I have seen at a simulated economy in micronationlism have chosen a type of economy (or a mixed economy), and approached it the same way that the economic model works in real life. I am now thinking that part of the problem has been using the real world approach to economics in a simulated situation. So, instead of approaching my choice of an economic simulation of mercantilism from the formation of guides, I approach it from the spending of the currency side. Instead of saying, “Build it and they will come”, I am saying “Come to the economy to spend and they will build it.” Kind of a twist on mercantilism. So now, when Locke says, Quote:“Talk about twisted hyper-mercantilism”, I say “Hey, at least someone understands what I’m doing here!”Since Shireroth is a simulated feudal society and since mercantilism followed feudalism in real life I saw Shireroth as the perfect micronation to do this. Then it was said why don’t we add aspects of a feudal economic system since Shireroth is a feudal society. I said sure, why not. It would be easy to fit the two types of economy together. After all, in real life there wasn’t a clean break between feudalism and mercantilism. So now I am trying to implement aspects of feudalism into the economy – some things may be taking hold with that aspect (Nobility Tax), but it is not yet happening.Aspects of mercantilism are starting to happen, or so it looks that way. Specifically I mean the formation of businesses that are selling actual goods or services, accumulating wealth, trading goods and services for currency, and even the business tax. The biggest single element that makes any simulated micronational economy succeed will be the participation of a critical number of people. Shireroth has that right now, so stay in the economic simulation – andSPEND – SPEND – SPEND (twisted, huh)********** American Heritage College dictionary: Third Edition, Houghton Mifflin Company – 1993 Barter – To trade goods or services without moneyMercantilism – noun. The theory and system of political economy prevailing in Europe after feudalism, based on national policies of accumulating bullion, establishing colonies and a merchant marine, and developing industry and a favorable balance of trade. Feudalism – noun. A political and economic system of Europe from the 9th to about the 15th century, based on the holding of all land in fief or fee and the resulting relation of lord to vassal and characterized by homage, legal and military service of tenants, and forfeiture.Capitalism – noun. An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market. Communism – noun. A theoretical economic system characterized by collective ownership of property and the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members. A system of government in which the state controls the economy and a single party holds power, claiming to work toward a social order in which all goods are equally shared.Fascism – noun. A system of government marked by a totalitarian dictator, socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition, and usually a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. Edited by: Austi Scot at: 3/14/04 5:10 am

[Philip Locke]

No, it wasn't an insult, and I'm willing to give anything a chance. But the graveyards of Micras are full of economic models. You must tread warily, lest you try to over stimulate the market.

[SSFSX17]

The key is not in establishing the correct system. The United States of America is as stable as the European Union (or was as stable before George W. Bush). It is just that a correct system will reinforce existing fundamental elements and complement existing activity. The reason why George W. Bush's economic policies blow so hard is because they work to harm what the USA does well and try to emphasize things that the USA does worse.You ought to fill out my economic survey before you even TRY to talk about a successful micronational economy, because you won't even know what you can target to make a good economy if you don't have the necessary survey data. You can't know what the key supply and demand sectors are if the people never told you, or never overtly did those things in the first place.To start on how I think survey data could be used to form the basis for Shireroth's economy: something that Shireroth definitely demands is administrative workers and people who do web services (php, asp, databases, etc). And so far, of the three people who filled out the survey, none of them expressed their ability to actually create the necessary web services. So we're facing a severe supply shortage in the web services sector. The solution is to either invest in education and training for web services (starting with potential teachers learning the stuff in the first place), outsource the jobs to people in other micronations, or create a special immigrant-worker program that targets web-services people from elsewhere and offers them special benefits if they become permanent and loyal citizens of Shireroth. I'll leave it to the government to figure out how each of these three policies could be carried out to their fullest extent, and how the disadvantages of each could be mitigated.

[Austi Scot]

You know what the economy really needs? – It needs a simply way for people to be involved. They don’t need long explanations by me or anyone else about how a real economy works, or about how the simulated economy works. (That is posted in MiniTrade however.)They don’t need surveys to gather information about what they’re doing or would do. They don’t need classes to teach them how the Federal Reserve works, or international banking, or the bond market – or the origin of money.What people need to know about how the economy works –You get a job Your employer pays youYou spendIf you’re an employer you need to know a just a little more.Your company/ministry produces goods and/or services.You sell goods and/or services – people pay you for them.You hire people.You get money for their work.You pay wages.You spend. If you’re a Noble you need to know just a few other things.You can impose taxes.People pay you taxes if you do.You can also work or run a business (see above)You get paid.You spend.

[david northworthy beckfor]

Quote:To start on how I think survey data could be used to form the basis for Shireroth's economy: something that Shireroth definitely demands is administrative workers and people who do web services. And so far, of the three people who filled out the survey, none of them expressed their ability to actually create the necessary web servicesactually, of the people who did the servey are capable of doing web stuff....and there are others who canQuote:You ought to fill out my economic survey before you even TRY to talk about a successful micronational economy, because you won't even know what you can target to make a good economy if you don't have the necessary survey data.surveys dont get stuff that they dont ask about..surveys dont get information that takes to long to write in a short answerbeing a micronationalist and living amongst the people and getting to know them does give you that information.....has Austi Scot done that? just read your history books and you will see that he has been around for a very long time "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[SSFSX17]

david northworthy beckford: Making websites and HTML is a lot different from making a PHP program stuck to a database like, let's say a mySQL database. There's a whole industry dedicated to web services. Web services and web design are like apples and oranges. Web design (with HTML, XHTML, CSS, maybe XML too) is a lot like the job of a newspaper editor or magazine editor, whereas web services are basically "real" programming in the specific area of the httpprotocol. To get deeper into web services, businesses have automatic computers that shoot XML feeds back and forth to automatically decide logistics. Dell Computers is so good with the way they handle data from their suppliers that they sometimes receive components like graphics cards and RAM slices only a few hours before they get to work on putting together your order. I can't blame you for not knowing about any of this, cuz I grew up in the center of the dotcome bubble and burst and the local newspapers bombarded me with information all the time. Point is, you have to make sure you're deep into a technical field before you can say that people do or do not have certain skills. From the perspective of, say, a humanities-type of person, all those computer geeks are the same, whereas you see massive amounts of subdivisions between the various technical fields by looking at the array of information that slashdot.org posts every day.Additionally, I never said that the answers to the survey had to be short answers. You can write as much as you want. I mean, what's stopping you?Austi: The convenience of the motions of spending and receiving don't seem to be the main issue with everybody. After all, the motions of spending and receiving themselves are merely an emergent behavior that comes out of exchange. The only reason why we view economic activity in terms of spending and receiving is because humankind is currently at a point in which the value of things are measured in currency that is physically (now electronically) transported.I'm actually seeing a lot of people expressing that they are willing to do quite a bit of volunteer work, which indicates to me that they consider their love, friendship, and community to suffice for currency. The economy, after all, is not about going through the silly motions of moving money around. The silly motions of moving money around are only for the purposes of establishing trust, which people seem to have a lot of in each other already. The only purpose of economic systems, too, is to reduce opportunity cost. If people know the basic theories of everything, they can understand all the things that they don't need to do. Economic education is a significant and worthy goal in any society, because the main way in which ruling classes oppress their under-classes is by preventing them from knowing that there are other ways to do things - or that they can make up their own ways.One example I can think of off the top of my head is California's fiscal crisis. There are a number of propositions that are being taken directly to the voters. If we just let our leaders make our decisions for us, Gray Davis would have run the freaking state further into debt than it already has. Nobody was double-checking Gray Davis to tell him that maybe throwing all that money at the power-gouging companies was not a good idea for California's budget. With public input, we can now decide how California is going to "sell" its debt as bonds. And if the public understands the bond market and the nature of government debt, then the public can also figure out how they can make sure that their children get a half-decent education, how the poor of California can have guaranteed welfare, how the car-driving people of California can understand the sacrifices they must make in order that the roads even continue to exist, etc etc. Economic knowledge translates directly to your government being unable to sneak fast ones past you. Because the adult population of the United States of America has such little economic knowledge, George W. Bush was able to sneak a lot of fast ones past us while convincing us that they were good things. I'm talking about the tax cuts, immigration amnesty, etc etc, not even gonna get into the whole war on terror thing. It is therefore in the best interests of the people as a whole to have a good foundation of economic theory, so that George W. Bush can never do that to them again.My eventual goal for Shireroth is that it never shows up in the "Exercises in personal entertainment or self-aggrandizement" category of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation since people here seem to be serious about the whole micronationalism deal. I mean, some of the stickied posts in Shireroth itself seem to indicate that exact desire to be "serious" and not just a bunch of bums who can't deal with the outside world. Because you're not like that, right? (I hope you answer, "That's right, we're not bums who can't deal with the outside world, we feel fine," or else I'm gone)

[Philip Locke]

First off, while Shireroth is no Aerican Empire, it surely isn't a Nova Roma, and never will be.Its purpose and function has differed with each incarnation. At this point, years after its founding as a "joke" ezState, I think that Shireroth is simply a community of like-minded individuals who are united in hopes of creating a stable, long lasting nation with "cyber sovereignty". Frankly, I see Talossa as more of a joke than, oh say, Madland. An old quote comes to mind, concerning TGC, "Bouncing green ball and former Talossan. We don't know which is more scary." Or something like that.Second, I'm in favor of letting Austi do what he wishes. For now, at least. At this stage in the game, it's not too late to correct any mistakes he may make. I don't mean that we should stifle debate, but that we should give the MiniTrade a long leash.

[Phoenix the Risen]

hear hear.SSFSX17, the problem with the development of the economy is not that we are a joke nation. I for one would like to believe that we are more serious than probably the rest of Micras thinks. The problem is that Shireroth has not had an active economy since the times of dStryker (in other words, for about three years), which is almost as long as we've been a sovereign nation. Because of this, 90% of our citizens have joined without the habit of participating in a Shirithian economy, and therefore are not about to jump in head first.The economy as you are proposing it deals with every issue at a single moment. If we were to impose every point of this on our citizens, I'm sure that at least half the population would give up and choose not to participate in the economy, if not outright leave. We cannot immediately link economics with politics, because the politics have been established with precedent made on their own standards, not those of monetary worth. We cannot immediately link economics with productivity, because productivity in this nation has always been casual and voluntary, rewarded by political status and recognition. We cannot immediately link economics with resources, because Shireroth has no established resources.Austi Scot is implementing a plan that will gradually ease the nation into virtually everything you mentioned, except on a microworld level rather than macroworld. He's doing a fine job, and is inciting participation as well as productivity.Now I am not saying that all your ideas are completely invalid in Micras, but please stop criticizing the way Austi is running things. He has a plan, and he's doing a fine job. In the meanwhile, please, apply for a teaching position in the Ministry of Research and Education. You write very well and have very interesting views. You should at least try to submit a work to the library if nothing else.Oh, but one more thing: try to hold off on the comparisons between Shireroth and the US. Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[Austi Scot]

SSFSX17,There were several things in your most recent post I was going to respond to – and (LOL) I probably will do that here – but Locke, David and Joseph made the major points I wanted to try to make.Shireroth isn’t in a real life situation, it’s a simulation – much like the interactive fiction you enjoy, (but not exactly) – and many real life principles of economics have never worked in a micronational simulation. While this is true I think that most of those principles will work but that they must be approached and established in a different fashion from what can be done in the real world. I have come to that conclusion after four years of attempts on my part and after seeing attempts by others to establish an economic simulation in micronations. As Philip Locke said, corrections can be made. I believe, from reading the things you have to say, that you are very knowledgeable concerning economics. It’s just that we seem to disagree about what methods to use to reach the same goals. And right now I would appreciate a “long leash” with you and others tugging on it but not using it to tie me or Shireroth to any given course of action.As David said, surveys are limited – but they can be useful.As Phoenix said, micronations, and Shireroth particularly, don’t compare directly to the U.S. or any real nation. Too many requirements and too much structure all at once has caused people to not get involved or to not stay involved in micronational economies. Now I would like to make a suggestion to you – I’ve been thinking about this for several days and was going to write you post in Kildare, but I’ll do it here in the hopes you’ll see it. Please understand this is only a suggestion – take it or leave it, or maybe make it better.You seem to enjoy interactive fiction and to want to get others involved in that. I suggest you start a team contest. Make an announcement that teams of 2 people each can form and enter the contest. I don’t know if you’ll get anyone to enter but it’s worth a try.----Set down the contest rules – perhaps something of this nature.Entry Fee: 100 Erb per person / 200 Erb per team (Two member teams)Each team must select an IF that you or mDuo has started:Getting Adjusted Two Brothers Mishap on the StarseekerEach team must write IF in the story line thread they have chosen – taking turns.You and mDuo will also write in these IF’s as well as be the judges. After some point in time – you and mDuo judge which team has created the best story.The winning team is awarded 150 Erb/ team memberYou earn the remaining Erb as your commission for running the contest. ----- By doing something of this nature you can integrate the interactive fiction you enjoy with the simulated economy. Of course it depends on the willingness of others to get involved in IF and to enter the contest. There must be a market created. Austi

[Philip Locke]

I prefer to think of Shireroth as a sovereign community of free individuals who, by their own consent, agree to live and function within a set sociopolitical (and soon, socioeconomic) order. We observe and respect macronational (mainly US) and corporate (mainly ezBoard) law, while possessing an unusual form of independence that allows it to take on the form that mirrors that of real-world nations.Our hierarchies and systems, be they social or economic, are partially artificial, but are also grounded in living common law that has grown from years of consensual interaction. Shirerithians choose to accept and abide by this common law of the community while nurturing and furthering its more fictitious elements.In some ways, this is very similar to reality, but in other ways it is quite different, because the level of importance and intensity of participation here is very unlike that of real life. At the end of the day, deep down inside, I don't give a damn if Erik is god of this forum, or if Fax can "execute me", because I'm still going to wake up tomorrow and eat breakfast. On that same line of logic, I don't mind if the economy is structured in a way that would seem illogical or inefficient in RL, and I won't lose sleep over Austi slipping up here or there.If it comes to a point where my slot in the order of this community is threatened and my interests and entertainments are put in jeopardy by his incompetence or flat-out incorrectness, then I'll jump on him. Not until then.

[Scott Alexander]

I hate to break up a really interesting theoretical discussion with some actual practical questions, but if Austi could just answer one or two things for me:1. Am I correct in thinking that you pay businesses for having employees working there? If so, why? Isn't that a really weird way to run the whole employee system, since the point of having employees is that they do work for you, and that's how you get money?2. Aren't you creating a lot of money out of thin air here for stuff like the employees? Are you at all worried about inflation, or is there a reason why that's not going to happen?

[Philip Locke]

Quote:1. Am I correct in thinking that you pay businesses for having employees working there? If so, why? Isn't that a really weird way to run the whole employee system, since the point of having employees is that they do work for you, and that's how you get money?As I said before, it's hypermercantilism. Basically, an odd mix of capitalism and communism with a dash of feudalism. The Crown would control employment (and thus, economic growth) by deciding on who gets what money when. Government control of the how much's and when's of payday also allows the MiniTrade to stem or instigate inflation as he wishes.Or so I've figured...?

[Austi Scot]

MY incompetence or flat-out incorrectness Â… well, that takes the cake!Pick up your prize, a chocolate cake, in lobby on your way out.

[Philip Locke]

Eh, no worries. You have yet to display any sign of either.Were it strawberry cake, though...

[Austi Scot]

Quote:I hate to break up a really interesting theoretical discussion with some actual practical questions, but if Austi could just answer one or two things for me: So I take it you want to pick the two the things I answer –cuz if it were my choice my two answers would be “brown” and “I just don’t like doing that, it’s more responsibility than I want.” …. But then you didn’t ask the two questions that go with those answers …. So ok, I’ll try to answer your questions.Quote:Am I correct in thinking that you pay businesses for having employees working there? If so, why? Isn't that a really weird way to run the whole employee system, since the point of having employees is that they do work for you, and that's how you get money?Philip Lockes answer: Quote:As I said before, it's hypermercantilism. Basically, an odd mix of capitalism and communism with a dash of feudalism. The Crown would control employment (and thus, economic growth) by deciding on who gets what money when. Government control of the how much's and when's of payday also allows the MiniTrade to stem or instigate inflation as he wishes.Or so I've figured...?Philip is actually correct. The system I have in place can correctly be called hyper-mercantilism. Yes, there is an odd mix of capitalism, communism, and feudalism. (please don’t ask me to point out each action which falls under each of those – but I can if necessary.) I am paying businesses and ministries for having employees – and the business or ministry must pay the employee a wage from the Erb paid to them as a result.Why you ask – in the pass most micronational economies were either set up with a beginning amount of the currency – usually one million, or by granting each person a hugh sum of the currency when they opened a bank account – usually anywhere from 10,000 to 100,000 of the currency. My method allows the currency to enter the system slowly, allows for variations of wealth among people, and the creation of that wealth by activity in the economic simulation.Yes, this is a really weird way to run the whole employee system. People actually have to seek employment in this simulation in order to gain money, and then they actually have to perform their economic responsibilities. My system also means someone can’t gain wealth without interacting with others in the economy. You’re right, that is a really weird way to run the whole employee system.You’re right again - the point of having employees is that they do work for you, and that's how you get money? This is why I have put in place a system where people have to seek employment to get money (Erb). However, the employer needs money in order to pay wages – where are the funds to pay wages going to come from before there is any currency in the system? Now you see – there needs to be some mechanism to input currency.Usually the currency comes from the sale of goods and services produced by the employee. I am attempting to encourage the production of goods and services, but Shireroth isn’t yet completely to that stage at this early development of the economy.Rrakanychan is attempting the production of goods and has it’s first contract. This sale will circulate currency and allow Rrakanychan to have funds with which to pay employees. KSHR may yet produce commercials – a service – and thus generate revenue which the owner can use to pay employees. I have encouraged Mattlore to charge for his service of running the stadium and the sport games. If he does so, the team owners would pay and would then be able to sell tickets to the games. I have encouraged SSFSX to provide a service with his Interactive Fiction by running a contest.Your ministry produces a service to the nation of Shireroth, foreign relations. The university produces a service – classes. If people are charged for the classes the university would be able to use the funds to pay the wages of the professors who they hire.The problem is first getting some currency into the system so it can be used to purchase the goods and services and to pay wages. At some point the spending will be high enough to pay the wages of those who produce the goods and services and of those who provide the government services. My system allows that point to be reached by economic activity instead of imputing one millioin Erb into the system and attempting to find ways for the use of all that currency all at once. Quote:Aren't you creating a lot of money out of thin air here for stuff like the employees? Are you at all worried about inflation, or is there a reason why that's not going to happen?Most micronational simulated economies began with the central bank inputting a hugh amount of the currency and then holding the balance not put into accounts, which entered the economy as more people participated. Thus causing inflation in single large sum jolts. Instead of that my system allows inflation to occur only as people are active. However, you are right – I am creating a lot of money out of thin air. Where do expect the Erb to come from? Where do you think the currency of any fiat system comes from? The fact that in the real world currency is printed on paper doesn’t mean it isn’t fiat currency. This is a simulation, and in real life the central economic authority creates currency out of thin air – I’m only simulating that. Most countries create a little at a time, just like I’m doing. Yes, the creation of fiat currency is the actual definition of inflation. It will happen in Shireroth and I expect it to happen. I even want it to happen – just at a slow rate. There are ways (not all of them revealed here yet) to cause deflation. If and when that time comes, the Minister of Trade can make that happen too.The imposition of taxes allows a control value on that inflation along with helping to set up a mechanism of circulation. The spending requirement also helps to set up a mechanism of circulation. (I know you didn’t ask that so I’ll throw that answer in for free.) Philip Locke should work for the Ministry of Trade, he seems to understand exactly what I’m doing and how I’m doing it.I must admit though that Beckford also seems to get it. So does Phoenix (Joseph Strong). As a matter of fact you seem to have caught on to what I’m doing too.I was hopeful that people would catch on to how the economy worked by just being involved. That seems to be happening. For those who think they haven’t yet caught on – just keep earning and spending.Get money er … get ErbSpend Erb It’s that simple for most people in the economy. If you want a little more involvement – run a business or a ministry, or be a noble.Austi

[Philip Locke]

Quote:Philip Locke should work for the Ministry of Trade, he seems to understand exactly what IÂ’m doing and how IÂ’m doing it.If you have any particular positions in mind, drop me a line. I might be interested.Oh, but please just call me Philip. Or Locke. Not philiplocke.

[SSFSX17]

Believe it or not, I argue for my own amusement. As for the notion that a sudden transition would be incredibly shocking, I would have to disagree. People would simply notice that they suddenly get money for "work" they already do, or that they add on a transfer transaction to a line of "Hey, that website looks neat. Thanks, it helps a lot." If the problem is that people don't have activity, period, then nothing is going to change that. You can't just say, "Let's have an economy!" "Okay!"Something I see potentially happening is that people just transfer money and think that makes an economy, and maybe an employer will occasionally say, "By the way... you're supposed to be our web guy." And the web guy will say, "Oh yeah, I'll start working on it." And then six months will pass and the employer will think, "Hmm, I wonder why we don't have a website..." And the web guy will discover some web layouts laying around in his Dreamweaver or HTML-kit folder and wonder, "What in the world is this stuff? Baleeted!" I mean, you really don't want that happening. You have to want to do the work itself, more than you want an "economy." Because the economy is the accessory to the work, not the other way around. My point is that you have to really want to do stuff before you can try to create a system whose purpose is to regulate the way people do things.If the sudden shock of having to actually do something would make people leave, then perhaps you shouldn't create a system whose basis is activity. Austi's solution is what I call "cart before horse" or "thermonuclear explosive before hatred." My reasoning is that if people didn't do anything for each other before, they're certainly not going to start now. It is a harsh way of reasoning, but it's especially true over the Internet. It is precisely because there is no personal stake in Shireroth that a lack of activity is not helped by any economy.I don't want Austi thinking, "People are exchanging more. This means that the nation is more active," because that kind of thinking would be false.

[Austi Scot]

SSFSX,Are you not taking into account these facts:Erik started the webpage company because that is what he likes to do.You have been encouraged to hold an Interactive Fiction contest because IF is what you like to do.Mattlore already operates the sport events and has been doing so for some time. The nobles already own sport teams and people already read about the games.The people who are nobles became nobles before the economic simulation began.The university classes started before the economic simulation.Shireroth has had Ministers and ministries since way before you or I were even here.SchumiInFerrari wants to have formula racing and isnÂ’t even part of the economy.People joined the military without even getting paid.I have encouraged the integration of the economy with the things that people already like to do. I am not getting the cart before the horse; I am attempting to hook the horse (the economy) up to the cart (the activity). Austi

[Philip Locke]

Quote:My reasoning is that if people didn't do anything for each other before, they're certainly not going to start now. That's not only harsh reasoning, it's dead wrong.The whole of this nation is built on work that people didn't have to do for each other. The introduction of economic incentives only sweetens the deal.

[Austi Scot]

The economy has now started to go through economic cycles more often. In the last two weeks we have seen businesses and ministries being paid twice for the production of those who are employed.EMPLOYERS: ----- Be sure to pay your employees wages. Most did this last time and some have even done this right away this time. Of course you set the wages – but be sure to also spend between 20% and 35% as expenses.EMPLOYEES: ----- Be sure to spend some of that money you get from wages – for the economy to work Shireroth needs you to spend somewhere between 20% and 35% minimum. This spending is actually for everyone – if you own a business, the business needs to spend. If you own a business and pay yourself a wage – Shireroth needs you to spend.DUKES and BARONS --- Shireroth needs you to put a tax system in place within your lands. This step is necessary so that MiniTrade can move into the next phase of the tax system for the nation – making some determinations and recommendations.KAISER --- You have money – please spend!MINISTRERS --- Your ministry most likely doesn’t pay out the entire amount you collect in wages, and you shouldn’t. But you must also find ways to spend some of the Erb you get as expenses. Of course you set the wages, but be sure to spend 20% to 35% on expenses.UNEMPLOYED? --- Please get a job. It would help the economy alot if you would apply to an existing business - or go ask the Department of Employment to help you find a job. Edited by: Austi Scot at: 3/28/04 9:20 pm

[Austi Scot]

Economic News:I need a consensus from people. I am involved in talks with several nations about currency exchange. Most of these nations have simulated production – such as food, homes, cars, planes, ships, etc – in order to establish trade with these nations Shireroth would need to do the same type of simulated production.This would mean if you are involved in the economy you would be required to consume simulated goods – how many of you are willing to have this type of economy.So far we have built our economy on real goods and services – we are not pretending to grow food or to mine minerals, or cut down trees and quarry rocks to make buildings, but I can build that right along side the economy we are building if people want. Please let me know what you think.---- On another note – there is a thread in MiniTrade where I need to talk to most if not all Business owners and Ministers – it’s labeled. There is only one topic right now but I have several that we need to discuss about the economy. If you own a business or are a Minister involved in the economy please be aware that economic decisions might be made without your input – better with your input though. Remember, I told you from the beginning that if you owned a business there was a bit more involvement – well, please – everything in the economy would develop better with your input then without it.--- On another note – another payday is about to arrive. If you haven’t paid your bills or if the company/ministry for which you work hasn’t paid its bills – you won’t be included in the payday Please pay your bills – The bank is open – there is a list of account holders in MiniTrade along with a link to the bank. Your passwords have been sent to you – but if you didn’t get it let me know and provide an email address for me where I can send it to you.