A formal response to the flag issue.

[Erik Mortis]

People want to change the flag apparently, they feel it's "ugly". I would challenge that opinion. The flag is simple, yes. But not this "hideous monstrosity" that some would claim it to be. It might need some touch up, maybe a darkening of colours; but to discard it? Some say others won't take us seriously because our flag "looks like a 12 year old drew it". But I challenge you, how is it any different from real life flags? How is is so hideous and "unprofessional" looking compared to real flag. Most flags could be drawn in MSpaint, they are simple and sport many colours.

And who are these others that we care about? Why do we care about what others say? Are we that wiling to discard something so old and integral to the nation so we can look like every other nation?

Shireroth is unique. Always has been. We do things our way. We have never striven to be someone else, to look like someone else. We have always been proud of our uniqueness. This is just an attempt to make us like everyone else out there. We may barrow from here and there, but it always becomes something of our own, something unique. Why would we wish to disregard THE oldest symbol of our nation?

And it is THE oldest. When the Republic of Shireroth was founded in 2000 it was under this flag. That direct democracy nation with its Bill of Rights, with its Articles of Creation and Provisional Constitution. This was the flag. That first republic on EZBoard, before the MCS when it was just a 1-3 man nation. This was the flag. When all around us has come and gone, lived and died, we remained. Our flag remained.

Of any aspect of this nation only 2 have survived from the first days. Our flag and the name 'Shireroth'.* The old government, gone years ago. The Articles, the rights, the constitution, all gone. The old forums, gone to electronic dust. The democracy, gone. In almost 10 years we have evolved and changed and survived. But we are still Shireroth. We have the name, we have the flag. We endured. Now we wish to throw aside something we've had from the start? One of the only things left? It may seem a trifle to some, especially those from nations that have never had things last for so long. But the flag is an integral part of who we are as a nation. It is an integral part of our unique identity.

The flag is a symbol of Shireroth. As I said, it is the first symbol. We have nothing else remaining of those days. And what's more, it is a symbol of our nations survival. With so much changed, this one thing has endured unchanged, a symbol to how Shireroth can live and endure, even when all around it may have come and gone. Shireroth has lived and lived, when so much did not. And through it all, the flag was there as a symbol of the nation. And now you want to cast it aside for some misguided sense of aesthetics?

If we remove the flag, the only thing left from the first days is a name. And while a name means much, so does a flag. Both are symbols. If we change the name, will we still be the same nation? Can we honestly claim to be that same nation that started in 2000. If we change the flag, and all we have is a name, are we still the same? But even the name has been modified over time. We tacked on 'Imperial'. Not much, but some. So in the end, the flag is the only unchanged and unmolested vestige of our beginnings. And we would toss it aside so lightly?

And what about in 5 years when this generation of citizens is gone? When the next generation looks at whatever flag you have decided to replace the Original flag of Shreroth with, and say 'it looks so out of date, let's change it. We've done it once." Then the flag is meaningless. And don't say it won't happen. There is one thing Micronationalists, and people in general, love to do, and that is change things. To attempt to make something their own. So they will seek to change the flag again, and why not? At that point it'll mean nothing. It won't stand for anything, it'll just be a flag. No great connection to the foundation, to any great event. Just another flag to be tossed aside and replaced on a whim.

The original symbolism of the flag may have been lost to time, and memory, but it has acquired a new meaning and symbolism. It IS the symbol of Shireroth. Our will to live. Our ability to survive the ages no matter what. You say it has no meaning. I say it does. I say it means Shireroth can live. That something CAN last the years in micronations. When so much cannot even last a year, we can last 9 years, 10 years, why not 20 years.

You remove the original flag of Shireroth and the next will have no meaning. It may have some fabricated symbolism for the creator, but it'll mean nothing for the nation, its history or its future. And when those symbolic meanings are forgotten and lost, none can look at the flag and see how it has endured from the beginning, cause it won't be the first. It won't have the power that this flag has. It won't have the recognition we have now. It won't be synonymous with Shireroth! It'll just be another flag, nothing special.

I know I will not be able to stop a vote in the Landsraad soon. And I know I'll be out voted, for I will vote NAY on any flag put forth. I have no power to stop you from doing this; I intentionally stripped myself of those powers long ago. But please, don't go into this blindly, because it seems like a good idea at the time. Don't go into this because it seems fun. Don't go into this because 'everyone' else is going for it. Don't rush into this for the thrill of change. Stop, think, look ahead and look behind. A flag means more then you think, a flag is equal to a name. You look at a flag you don't see a flag you see a nation. You look at our flag and you see Shireroth, not just a flag. So don't just pick the first flag with flashiness and flare. Make sure you understand what this will do for and to the nation in the short AND the long run. How will this play out in history. Make sure you know you are doing the right thing here. This is more then an aesthetic choice. This is a change to our history and our very identity as a nation.

Thank you.

*(and the name of the Ministry of Immigration and Naturalization, though it got changed back and forth a lot of times.)

[Malliki Tosha]

That is what we are trying to do now, to actually do this the right way. The flag is hideous, mostly because it looks amateurish. Perhaps the best course of action would be to clean it up and make it look like a real flag, perhaps a new design is better. We are trying to find that out by doing this now. Having a transparent process where everyone gets to propose a flag design is the best way to get something that will both be true to our history but also work in the future.

[Andreas the Wise]

Erik, why don't you submit a slightly cleaned up version of the flag? Like make the centre nicer, and see if you can make the lines look marginally less paint-ish.

[Erik Mortis]

Mike.. ...nevermind..

Andreas, I lack the skill. All I have is paint really. well.. okey I have the GIMP. But graphics is not my talent. I know someone else has the skill to simply clean up the flag, so I'll leave it to them. Assuming anyone can stop for three seconds and hop off the bandwagon.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I got to say...this is a good post, and much more mature than mine (though you had the extra advantage of two more days to calm down).

I do think the flag is ugly. The colors don't go well together, it's too bright, you can't see half the colors without looking closely, and there's a reason that sbrown isn't on any other flag in macro- or micro- nationalism. There are too many colors, the contrast is off, the bars are too thin, and any attempt to thicken the bars makes the bad colors stand out worse.

The flag is definitely old. As you say, it's one of the last things connecting us to the old Republic of Shireroth. But there's a reason for that. We've gradually gotten rid of everything else from that era because it wasn't very good. The form of goverment didn't work, the forum wasn't up to our needs, the Bill of Rights proved an impediment, and the nation itself got annexed. You got rid of most of those things yourself, with some help from the rest of us.

In their place, we created better institutions. The Kaisership, the Duchies, our new board, our new Charter. And so, as you mentioned, Shireroth today has almost no connection to that original Republic. It's different. Not just different. Better.

Why, then, do we need something to symbolize that we're the same country as the RoS was? We're not the same country as the RoS. We're a country that started as the RoS, developed organically from its citizens and ideals, and then made itself better. I think it's fully appropriate that our flag be one that pays homage to the flag of the RoS, but is better.

I understand the importance of traditions, but traditions are meant to be enabling, to be starting points for creativity, not to be constricting and mean no one can ever do anything because it might break a tradition. People should keep traditions because they like them, not because 83% of the country dislikes them but everyone feels too guilty to get rid of them.

Think about Christmas traditions. They started as a solemn day of prayer and hellfire sermons, went through St. Nicholas and family dinners, and now involve Santa Claus, Rudolph, Scrooge, and It's A Wonderful Life. None of these are perversions or insults to the Christmas spirit, they're just how another generation has interpreted it. And that's why even today people love Christmas and look forward to it, instead of being "Oh god, we've got to sit in a cold church for a whole day or else we'll be betraying our forefathers."

Every flag on the flag design thread is very closely based on the original Shireroth flag. We're not destroying the tradition, we're re-interpreting the tradition, the same way we've re-interpreted every other Shirerithian tradition. The reinterpretation may end up looking exactly like the old one but with a few smoother lines, or it may end up looking wildly different. The decision will be based on how the modern generation of Shirerithians interpret the ancient traditions through their own beliefs and talents. That's what makes Shireroth such a successful nation - the combination of strong traditions and bright people remaking those traditions - from Shyriath turning vague hints about Khaz Modan into his voluminous histories to Allot writing about Treesian deities who have been dead for a thousand ASC years to the constant minor changes in the role of the Landsraad.

Shireroth isn't about a name, or a flag. We could change our flag to solid black and our name to "Fnord" and after a week or two no one would notice the difference. Shireroth is a bunch of people, ideals, institutions, history, traditions, and the chaotic interaction between them. Focusing on any one item, freezing it in time, and saying "This is Shireroth, it can never change even if you all hate it" is a denial of Shireroth, not an affirmation of it. Letting the people and traditions and aspirations of Shireroth create something new, that pays homage to the past but is not constrained by it, seems to me a very properly Shirerithian thing to do.

[Gman Russell]

I support the old flag. I will spare you from having to read a bunch of reasons you'll argue with anyway.